I think he was saying can he change his strat and hold AT suited instead of just A on an 8/5 game because he is taking a shot at 20K

The answer is sure you can but every time you go against the math you are lowering your return %. I am not smart enough to know how much you are lowering your ev by making these moves.

Tring do you know what the return % would be by making 1 incorrect move? Is this even something that could be determined?

So to the OP, just know that if you make the wrong decisions you might get lucky and hit 20k or you might just go broke.

Oops math fail. Anyway DDB is a swingy game, but sure is fun when you hit 4 A's with a kicker. I hit that twice, and 3 royals so far. Only problem is it was on a VLT . Donated some of it back before realizing so.

The closest game in town is offering 9/6 JoB with prog so it evens out with the cashback (0.028%, more on cashing it in on Sundays with their 25% increase). I can't wait to hit Vegas and try a lot of their new member bonuses, such as the Palms $1k rebate, and some others I can't remember. Got a decent bankroll (4-5x royals) at quarters so hope I hit!

I meant to say 0.28% cashback (~0.36% if I cash in on Sunday).

Yeah, he can do whatever he would like, but it's suboptimal to hold AT suited vs. an Ace on a non-progressive, so I couldn't force myself to do it. Hell, you can just toss the cards every draw and give yourself about a 35% return if you like...lol

What your return %age would be based on a single error depends on the error and how many hands you play. For example lets say you play 299 hands flawlessly and then decide to just hold QQ instead of QQ77 in an 8/5 DDB game (a very common error among most uneducated players). This will cost 0.7919 credits on average per error. But over 300 hands you'll be expected to have a return of 1451.7915 credits from 1500 wagered, so breaking queens up will lower your return to 1450.9996/1500 = 96.73% (from 96.79% originally). So obviously errors are a bit of an issue, and I have read the average video poker machine gains about 2% more in edge from the average player. But any player with a decent amount of practice of proper strategy should be able to lose less than 0.5% from errors though, and true experts can lose less than 0.1%.

Jackpot went up to >$1600 yesterday. It looks like a 6400 credit payoff, and based on the Wizard of Odds site it was a 100.8888% return. With regular cashback it pushed it up to a 101.1688% game. Problem was I totally played it horribly and didn't optimize after looking at the results on how to modify holdings. Broke low pairs for 2 to a royal, TT for ATs or other high card, 4 to a straight flush for 3 to a royals.

It's frustrating (although pointless as each result is independent of the earlier ones) to 4 to a royals with 9s after drawing. It was interesting to see the characters that tried to hit the jackpot. The asian lady who shared every 4 to a royal every time she got it, the mother/daughter team that kept a log of all the royals they hit (something like 10 in the last few months! But she spent it all hitting it.), the couple who the wife was more into the game then the husband was, and the odd single guy who comes in for a seat, bangs on the buttons for a bit, and leaves.

BTW, which VP software do you guys recommend? I'm starting to see this as an investment after putting so much time into learning these machines, and would like to configure it for progessives, as well as casino perks so I can include cashback, and promos (such as a 2x day or something).

Wat??? Nice job trying to turn a +EV machine into a -EV one. Tossing 4 to a SF for 3 to a RF is also a bad mistake, but well come up much less frequently. I just came back from the casino yesterday with a session that was roughly in the 8th percentile of results for 35/8/5 Bonus Poker (99.66%) (-$130 over ~850 hands)...bleh.

If the royal is $1600, this is the best strategy for quarter JoB.
http://wizardofodds.com/games/video-...5-d-50-d-1280/

As for software, I really am not the right person to ask since I have never bought any. If I was going to buy software I would probably insist on a program that simulates results for both single and multi-hand poker. Adding in factors like comps would be a nice plus. I have never tried it, but I have read some good things about Bob Dancer's "Video Poker for Winners". They also offer a free trial.

Yeah my thought process went from robotic to emotional in .005 seconds. It made me turn into the many slot or pit players who tried to get the big score without seeing the bigger picture of playing in a +EV fashion.

As soon as I got home I checked the wizard of odds site, and got a dose of reality. Didn't help that I donked off a good portion of my money trying to hit it and screwed myself.

I did hit a SF and like 10 or so quads but if you're not hitting the royal your return is severely crippled.

And casinos are downgrading vp paytables? *sigh*

They have slowly been doing this for years...did this recently happen near you? Otherwise I am a bit confused by your post.

I have been using this software for the last 6+ years and really like it.

WinPoker6.0 VP Training Software

You can multi-play up to 10 hands. And for Jackpots, you can change the pay tables to any amount you want. So for a Royal, you can just add the jackpot amount to the normal pay.

However, I am not sure if the errors will change based on the change in pay table. But it is the best 30 bucks I ever spent.

Hope this helps.

Edit: I just went into my software and changed all the pay tables to zero except for the Royal. On the 1st hand, I got dealt 2 pair below Jacks and the King of Clubs. It was a major error to hold the 2 pair and correct to just hold the King. So it does adjust optimal play based on the pay tables. I learned something. Thanks Guys.

Sorry to be so oblique. I'm well aware of that trend. The point of my post is that even some people who are motivated and intelligent enough to seek out and read information about vp will play terribly when they sit at a machine. So what chance do the masses have?

Therefore (IMO), the tightening of vp pay schedules is due more to casinos' hating the idea that some individuals are able to beat them rather than due to the casinos' inability to earn a profit from having decent pay tables available.

I'll check out WinPoker. Sounds like a great program.

I know the casinos offers no promotions/reduced point accumulation for "better video poker" (probably meaning 99% or better). Seems to me the best way to take advantage of both sides is to play the highest return game that isn't full pay.

Another thing is that full pay machines only seem to go as high as quarters. They probably are kept at the casinos as a loss leader and so they can say "our slots/VP are the loosest" or whatever.

Well, I think they also just want more profit. And it's pretty clear when you examine paytables for newer, flashier video poker games like Super Times Pay and Ultimate X and they are quite difficult to find at the 99% level. Damn greedy bastards they are.

At the local casinos in Vegas they are reducing the number of fullpay machines as well..wonder if they eventually will get rid of them completely?
@Tring- I see these professional vp players playing 2 fpdw machines at the same time and they are going fast but I can guarantee that their not playing each machine at a 1000hands an hr. So if their playing each machine at least at 600hands an hr will they still make more than $9.50 an hr longterm? tks.

No, if they are only playing 600 hands/hr, then they are only getting $750 coin-in/hr, so flawless play would return $750*0.0076 = $5.70/hr.

But, I wouldn't be too surprised if they were going closer to 1000 hands/hr than you think. This past week, I was playing on an 35/8/5 Bonus Poker machine (which I have the strategy well-familarized at the minimum) and I had the machine on the SLOWEST speed setting. I counted the hands I played in 15 minutes. It was close to 1000 hands/hr when you multiplied my 15-minute result by four. If I put it on the highest speed setting, I probably could push closer to 1500 hands/hr.

Remember that 600 hands/hr is only one hand per 6 seconds. 1 Mississippi, 2 Mississippi, 3 Mississippi, 4 Mississippi, 5 Mississippi, 6 Mississippi. Many players focused into the game can play faster than this.

Micro trip report:

I didn't feel like waiting for the nickel 50 plays so I took a shot playing $2 coin NSUD single line at South Point during both their 2x points days this month (Valentine's day and President's day).

On singles awareness day I got torched for $2500 after 3963 hands. Cash back is around $238 (0.6%).

On President's day I played 3127 hands and cashed out -$270. Cash back is ~$188. I was up $1000+ at one point but had a horrible run of cards to end the session fffffuuuuuu.

So I lost $2344 on this +EV play. Good thing I can crush 1/2 live nlhe lol. Hopefully I can run good on the next 2x day. Can I get 4 deuces one fricken time per session? Jeez...

Oh and I also got a couple comps at the oyster bar. Thanks South Point! Can't wait for my mailers

Yeah, I have luck like that with my limited amount of quarter deuces play. I've never hit any while playing quarter deuces, but I have hit them at least 4 times while playing nickel deuces.

At least you have $1/$2 NLHE to fall back on. It's probably yields more consistent results than grinding this at an ~0.3% edge. I am so rusty at NLHE; I'd probably lose on most days of the week. I still would hope I could beat a table on a Friday night...

I have a question about an online VP game. It's on carbon poker and I am sure the payout percentages suck..lol. My question is about correct play.

It's a deuces wild game.

I just had a hand where I had Jd 8d 2 2 2

So I was dealt a straight flush which pays 13 to 1

A wild royal pays 30 to 1

four deuces pays 100 to 1

So..what's the correct play?

Do we dump the 8d and go for the wild royal?

Do we dump the Jd 8d and go for the four deuces?

Or...do we just hold the made wild straight flush here?

I think I play most situations correctly...but on multiple wild boards....I am not sure.

Oh..if it helps..it's a single deck shoe shuffled every hand

I figure the mailer rate adds about .2% with the coin in I play so my hourly should be around $39/hr with no mistakes. I wish I could make that at 1/2 haha. I'm only playing that stake/volume on 2x days and play 1000-2000 coin in every other day anyway.

Beating up the downtown deuces at the cortez. Ate my money, but made a wild royal on free play lol.

What? Is this dealt live? Single deck shoe?

Are you also sure you have the payouts correct? It is very, very standard to offer 200 for 1 (199 to 1) for 4 Deuces.

If Deuces is only 100 to 1 though, you should hold the straight flush.

If Deuces is 200 for 1 though, you should just hold 222.

Yeah, if the mailers are that good, the hourly is better than $1/$2 NL for sure. But sadly $1/$2 NL is a lot less variance than deuces wild video poker at these levels as well. Even 50-play nickels at 600 deals/hr has an SD of $580/hr. $1/$2 NL has a boring SD compared to that...lol

Gl, gl, gl! But do remember FPDW does have a lot less variance, and the Palms new member rebate!

Ive walked thru the Palms several times trying to find full pay deuces wild machines..haven't seen them..do they exist at the Palms or does the Palms just have a great comp system?

They are near the gift shop, and have big signs on top of the machines explicitly stating their payback. They aren't eligible for promotions though.

http://www.vpfree2.com/casino/palms

Just got back from Vegas. Hit 2 royals on the FPDW machine in one day. The guy next to me was like omgwtflol. Ya they are all the way in the sticks by the gift shop. 5 machines, and the rest are DB and DDB.

The point accumulation is enough on the machine to get a buffet or two if you put some work in.

Variance: got propositioned by a hooker at the Palms.

Still waiting for my 2aday royal to happen..how many hands in between did it take to hit the 2nd royal? How much did that hooker cost you? lol, after you hit 2 royals why not celebrate