Thread about video poker

[JohnnieAces]

I have a few general questions about VP. Are there really no deuces wild machines over 25 cents? how about 10/7 double bonus. And why would anyone want to play games other than these if these pay the most? I assume you would need them to have a big progressive to play another game. I live in new jersey and can go to Atlantic City or Pennsylvania Sands. Are there any good games there or do I have to fly to Vegas then take a cab to Pahrump or something?

[rammynutzhard]

Originally Posted by Barbiaux

a lot of great info in this thread as always.

One thing I didn't see mentioned though is, how is it done. Do people who make money sit there and play until they get the royal and hope it wins more than lost so far? On the podcast I just listened to he mentioned a royal cycle can be as many as 30,000 hands.

The ones who make money on VP don't think of "per session." Making money in VP is a long-term goal of the VP pros. It is true that royal cycles take quite a long time, but your number is a little low. Most games, the royal cycle is going to be around 40,000 hands. Some sessions are going to be losers, and some are going to be winners. By making the correct strategy holds every time without deviating, over the long run you can make a profit. Results are going to vary from person to person because there is a "luck" factor. In my play, I have gone 70,000+ hands without a royal, and I have also hit 2 within 1 hour before. It all depends on how you approach it. If you're in it for the long haul, it will even out over time, and the people playing correct strategy will be winners.

Another thing, royals are not always necessary to make a profit, even over a long session. I have had several winning sessions with just hitting quads several times, especially while playing certain games like Double Double Bonus where you get paid quite a bit for certain quads.

One last thing I wanted to mention is the importance of the slot club loyalty card while playing video poker...

Since I don't live as close to AC anymore, I don't get down as often as I used to. I used to play 5 times per week for a few hours a day after work. One of the last months I kept track of my stats were as follows:

I played 21 sessions that month, and with my OWN money, I ended up with a loss of around $275.

Now, with the loyalty card, I got the following:
1.) Over $800 in bonus cash (which I used in my sessions. Bonus cash must be wagered before cashing out.) This lessened my losses.
2.) Over $600 in cashback. This varies from casino to casino now.. some places allow you to still cash this out without wagering, and some now require you to wager it first. I didn't have to wager this.. I kept this money.
3.) 4 giveaways.. I used these for Christmas gifts. There was a luggage set, a pot/pan set, some silverware, and a glass vase. Not really cash, but it saved me money on buying gifts for 4 people!
4.) 21 free meals with comps and a starbucks coffee every day for free. Hey, we need to eat/drink, right?
5.) Participation in 2 slot tournaments. I didn't win in either this month, but they are free to enter, and you can win a lot of money in these if you get lucky. I have won quite a bit in these in the past.
6.) Free rooms.. if you play regularly, you can get quite a few of these. I didn't bother to stay often, but the option was always there.
7.) Sweepstakes entries galore.. I always had a ton of entries, but never won anything other than $500 once a few years ago in a cash sweepstakes..didn't win my Mercedes, which kinda sucked.. lol

Total net cash: +$325 considering my money loss, plus the $600 I kept from the cashback. It was worth more than $325 though with all the free food, comps, etc..

As a sidenote, I did not hit any royals this month...

[rammynutzhard]

Originally Posted by JohnnieAces

I have a few general questions about VP. Are there really no deuces wild machines over 25 cents? how about 10/7 double bonus. And why would anyone want to play games other than these if these pay the most? I assume you would need them to have a big progressive to play another game. I live in new jersey and can go to Atlantic City or Pennsylvania Sands. Are there any good games there or do I have to fly to Vegas then take a cab to Pahrump or something?

There are machines that have deuces wild that are over 25 cents, however, the paytables are generally not as good. In Vegas, they used to have a ton of $1 and $5 deuces wild machines that were over 100% payback. Once the pros started grinding these, they took most (if not all) of them out. You can still find some in the 25 cent denomination since the pros will most likely not bother playing a denomination that low and they are filled with people that do not play correct strategy. The same goes for 10/7 double bonus...

As for AC and PA Sands, the better machines are in AC. I have seen the paytables at the PA Sands and they are not very good compared to the ones I have seen in AC. However, the ones in AC in general are not as good as Vegas.

There are some positive games in AC, but they are very hard to find, and equally as hard to get on. Now it has been several months since I have been to AC, so I am not 100% sure if these machines are still there, but there were some full pay deuces wild games at Borgata, some positive double joker machines at Caesars.. also some Double Bonus Double Jackpot machines at Harrah's that used to be the best game in AC (Note, the machines do not participate in the loyalty program so you get no comps, no cashback.)

In all honesty, the best games in AC are usually going to be the progressives. If you have a software program such as WinPoker or Video Poker for Winners, you can input the jackpot amount for each paytable to see what amount the progressive needs to be to be a 100% or greater game. There are many times where you can find even quarter games with a payback of 101% or more. One time I even found a progressive joker poker game that at the time, the payback was 107% based on how high the progressive was (It was the highest progressive I have ever seen on these machines..) If you do your research on paytables, you can get an idea of when to play these games which normally would be negative EV games.

[syncmaster]

Originally Posted by JohnnieAces

I have a few general questions about VP. Are there really no deuces wild machines over 25 cents? how about 10/7 double bonus. And why would anyone want to play games other than these if these pay the most? I assume you would need them to have a big progressive to play another game. I live in new jersey and can go to Atlantic City or Pennsylvania Sands. Are there any good games there or do I have to fly to Vegas then take a cab to Pahrump or something?

-There is most likely not any higher coin on the +EV games. On the other hand, sometimes to get the best payout machines you have to play much higher coin. For example, I have a local casino where the best game is 9/6 Jacks or better (slightly -ev), but you have to play $2 or $5 coins ($10 or $25 bet total per hand). If you go to the quarter machines, it becomes 8/6 Jacks or Better.

-Maybe its the best game they can find, the ones you mentioned don't exist in my state. Or maybe they don't have a clue. Just because they are playing VP doesn't mean they are not there just to gamble. They probably just think its another slot, sometimes they are right.

-Not true on progressives, although they can turn a unbeatable game into a beatable one, they are not required to make a profit. For sure something to keep your eye on though. If you take the 9/6 JoB that I mentioned above, playing perfect strategy pays back 99.54% . Really close to full pay, but not quite.. If you factor in free play mailers, promotions (maybe they are giving away a hotel/buffet for 200 points), etc. It could come out to be slightly profitable. Basically you are taking advantage of all the perks that come along with playing a lot at a casino.

Check out this site, it tells you the bet payout machines for almost every casino in America. http://www.vpfree2.com/

My main piece of advise for everyone reading. Don't think of this as a way to make a living or get rich beating the casino. At most, it is a way to get a high roller treatment and come very close to break even. All while going to the casino daily, which can be really fun for some people. I mean, people do this daily anyway, the only difference is they drop 5 figure amounts each year in slots/pits.

[JohnnieAces]

these are great answers thanks guys. I guess the best thing to do is look for jacks or better 9/6 with a progressive. that way I can hopefully get it over 100% and get some comps/ free rooms etc. Hopefully I can find these at 1 or 5 dollar machines in borgata.

what I meant when i said "why would anyone want to play anything other than deuces wild or 10/7 double bonus?" I meant among players trying to grind. I understand any given individual in a casino could have a hundred different reasons for sitting down to play. I meant people like on 2+2 usually would take only the +EV games. I think I understand now. thanks

[Barbiaux]

Originally Posted by syncmaster

-

My main piece of advise for everyone reading. Don't think of this as a way to make a living or get rich beating the casino. At most, it is a way to get a high roller treatment and come very close to break even. All while going to the casino daily, which can be really fun for some people. I mean, people do this daily anyway, the only difference is they drop 5 figure amounts each year in slots/pits.

Rammy and sync thank you for your responses. The quote above is exactly what I am looking for. I posted another thread about playing roulette and my main motivation is comps. I used to have the highest level card (they gave it to me when the casino opened because I mentioned someone else that was given one) I was able to keep it for the first year the casino was open and the extra stuff I got was great so I am trying to get back to that level without spending a ton of coin. I understand I will lose money in my adventure and I am fine with that as long as it doesn't cost me 20k.

Rammy, when you played everyday what was your strategy. Did you play at the same machine daily and did you move to different machines throughout your session? When you went in for a session when did you leave (did you stay for x amount of time and leave no matter what, or what was your reason for leaving each night)?

[rammynutzhard]

Originally Posted by Barbiaux

Rammy, when you played everyday what was your strategy. Did you play at the same machine daily and did you move to different machines throughout your session? When you went in for a session when did you leave (did you stay for x amount of time and leave no matter what, or what was your reason for leaving each night)?

When I went to play daily, my strategy was very simple, just play for the allotted time I set for my session and then leave.. I would usually play a different game everyday, but the only reason for that is that I would go throughout the casino to all the known progressives and check for the one that was the highest EV based on each particular game's paytable. For example, the casino I went to would have a progressive on double double bonus poker, joker poker, deuces wild, etc.. Knowing the paytables of each machine and when the progressive meter of each game would make it close to or above 100%, that would be my choice of the day. If none of the progressives would be anywhere close to 100%, I would look for the highest return game I could find and play my session there.

Because playing video poker is a grind and a continuous session, I would never stay any longer than I intended to (unless I happened to get lucky enough for a handpay and had to wait for a slot attendant! ) My wife had slightly different work times than me as well, so I would need to go home at a certain time anyway.

The only deviation I would make in my play would be to sometimes play the multihand games (i.e. super times pay) if I was having a good session. There is a lot more variance in those games, but the potential for getting big hits is higher. I had some nice handpays on those machines.

The one thing I learned very quickly was to always stick to strategy and never deviate based on hunches. Big payouts are never "due" and just because a machine just hit does not mean it will not hit again. Your odds of the very next hand being a royal flush after just hitting a royal flush are exactly the same.

[Fergie72]

Rammy,

Thanks for all the great info you added to this thread. Your strategy for deciding what to play in the above post is almost exactly what I have used recently at a local Indian casino. I must be doing something right!

I would like your opinion on something. I am going to Vegas for 4 days in a couple weeks. I am paying for two nights at the Palms and have 2 comped nights at Aria with $100 free play.

I am allowing myself a 3k bankroll so I am limited to quarters. I would like to get as much of the 2 nights at Palms comped as possible, yet I want to play the best machines too. The best machines for me are the FPDW progressive bank but I know it will be almost impossible to get comps playing them.

It was suggested that I find 3 play 9/6 JoB and play that which will allow me to run more money through and thus earn a lot of comps with low variance.

My question is what is the difference between my theoretical win playing the FPDW vs the theoretical loss on the 3 handed JoB? Ball park obv since there are unknown variables with the progressive.

Taking into consideration the goal of comped rooms how would you divide your play?

[syncmaster]

99.54% is the house edge on 9/6 JoB, so you lose (on average) .46c per $100 bet.

100.77% is the house edge on FPDW, so you will win (on average) .77 per $100 bet.

Not sure on comps for FPDW, you might get little to nothing, but 9/6 should give you 1 point for every $10 coin in. This can also very from casino to casino, I think there is one in my area that gives 1 pt for ever $45 coin in.

If you goal is to get comped I agree that JoB 3 line is probably the best game, because it will reduce variance while letting you bet more coin. Also, I would say your chances of losing less (value) than the rooms are worth on JoB are better than making enough (value) to pay for the rooms though FPDW. That is if they will even comp your room for free for playing JoB, not sure on this.

I hope this helped a little, I'm not the best math guy and have no experience with getting stuff comped, other than future comps I expect the casino to send me. This might be another thing for you to consider, do you want to be offered another room in 6 months/next year?

Some people in the Las Vegas Lifestyle forums might be able to help you with specific questions about casinos and their comps.

[Fergie72]

Yeah, I think your assessment is correct. I am going to give the 3-line JoB the bulk of my play. I will still play a little FPDW just because it is more fun.

I will let everybody know how it works out.

[Barbiaux]

well so much for this idea too. My local casino only has 8/5 and 7/5 which gives the house a huge edge compared to 9/6

[Fergie72]

I feel your pain. There is a law in Minnesota here that makes it illegal for any machine to return more than 98%! Needless to say, I only play sparingly and then only with money that I expect to lose.

[Koss]

Try to find one of those machines that's at the bar. That way you don't have to wait for the waitresses for the free drinks and can get new ones as fast as you can drink them. I think I went through about 5 jack and cokes in an hour playing $1 JoB at Planet Hollywood. Total hit to the wallet: $3.

[rammynutzhard]

Originally Posted by Fergie72

Yeah, I think your assessment is correct. I am going to give the 3-line JoB the bulk of my play. I will still play a little FPDW just because it is more fun.

I will let everybody know how it works out.

syncmaster pretty much nailed it... If you are playing to get the rooms comped, it would be better for you to play the 3 play JOB since you will have low variance and you will be able to acquire the comps to get the room.

I agree that JOB can get rather boring, which is why I try to find other games with high progressives instead. Nothing irks me more than hitting a big hand in JOB that would have paid a lot of money in other games. One time in particular I was playing 5 play quarters and got dealt AAA3A. I still ended up with about $155, but in Double Double Bonus, that would have been a sweet $2500 handpay..

I would try to figure out the points necessary to get a comped room. They may tell you the figure, and then you can base your play on JOB to the amount necessary for the comps, then switch to whatever other game you choose, such as the FPDW.

One thing to be careful of though.. Even though JOB has low variance, make sure that the amount of 3 play JOB you play is worth the loss to get the rooms comped. If you end up losing more money than the rooms are worth, it would make sense to play the FPDW instead.

[syncmaster]

Originally Posted by Barbiaux

well so much for this idea too. My local casino only has 8/5 and 7/5 which gives the house a huge edge compared to 9/6

Have you looked really good, and checked vpfree2?

Like I said, In one of my local casinos you only get 9/6 JoB in the high limit room ($2 - $5 coin = $10 -$25 per bet). If you want to play quarters or even dollars your going to be stuck playing these games too.

Don't forget about progressives, and remember gambling with a 2% house edge is still better than gambling with a 5% house edge. If your going to be at the casino gambling anyway.

Try looking out for some promo days. For example, one of my local casinos gives away a buffet for earning 20 comp points on a weekday Mon-Thurs. They also give 5x points on Mondays, so I only play there 1 day during the week.