Well the lady spoke to me the first night I got there so I still didn't have a discretionary fund..... also I could lose my job so I didn't oblige. If I didn't worry about that I probably would have.

I got my first royal about 3 hours in, and the second 12 hours later. This was my last "take a shot" session right before heading to the airport so I was amazed that this happened. I coined in about $400 of my own money for these 2, and used the freeplay to fund the rest so I was quite happy. Both club royals, held 3.

The wild royals and 5oak kept me in business long enough to keep on it.

I got about 30k points at the Palms, do they send bouncebacks for that kinda play?

Also now that I'm back, the only action I can get is the JoB prog a few hours away in Oregon. It looks like a 7200 coin payout ($1800) can net me a 101.3759% return + 0.28% for an effective 101.6599% game. Should I keep hitting that? I'm gonna miss the FPDW and this is the closest game in town that offers such good odds.

I dont know what the Palms comp rewards are but with 30K points you should get mailers and free play money. Keep hitting that 101.6599% game..you'll be making profit in the long run.

Gonna check out some more "locals" casinos in Vegas next time, and figure I might try a bit of +EV video poker for fun. Which is the best one to play FPDW at? I noticed on vpfree there's a few.

all stations properties have FPDW... It is what I play... Green Valley is a very nice casino, but they will not turn the Full pay machines to top speed, this is an issue for me as i play over 1100 hands/hr. Santa Fe in the north the bank of 5 or 6 machines outside the club do go full speed. Red Rock gorgeous casino, never played vp there tho. Boulder Station near me... smoky, and only a few of the machines are full speed. (understand none are slow, just not max speed)

I did the math on some of these 100% games and found the Palms $2 DB with cashback can net you $18.60/hr. Does this sound right? I spent some time on a spreadsheet and found (2*5*1.017-10)*800 and adding to a 0.000625% cashback equals that much.

This is 800 hands/hr and I don't think they'll let you cash it out actually, only in freeplay. If so $13 bucks an hour for a video poker game ain't that bad. Of course the 3-5x royal rule means you'll need $24k-40k which negates the fact you can grind it up.

Also, are there any VP teams of some sort that chase +EV games or progressives? I would love to get in on something like that to reduce variance and play above my stakes.

Your answer is right, but the numbers you wrote were wrong 100.17% = 1.0017.

But in Vegas, there are still probably some better plays out there than that. But since I'm not a local, I haven't tried to really figure those out.

And I have heard of VP Progressive teams out there, but I dunno who to ask about them.

I play FPDW at 1100-1200 hands/hr...(I timed myself the other day did 1100 in 1 hour and I took a phone call from dad during that time, and this was after doing an 8 hour shift at work). play .25 lvl not making much but passes time profitably.... I would love to play $1 but I don't have the bankroll for it, and I need to learn more games, I prefer to practice practice practice until I can make less than 1 mistake per hour first. I first learned JoB, then FPDW when I moved to Vegas. I need to learn DB and DDB as there are more of those around, and there are some nice progressive plays on them. There is a bonus deuces wild progressive game I want to start watching, figuring out strat, and progressive breakpoints. I would love to talk/meet with more local video poker players who play for profit only.

The casino I usually play at has a great 9/6 JoB prog, and it's included in their bounceback offers. Just got offered a free room and $50 in freeplay. Rooms worth about $70 but nothing to the additional hourly. If I play for 10 hours it'll net an extra $5 an hour. I averaged a 100.6513% return with $1,500, and with a 0.28% cashback it would take it to 100.9313% game netting $9.31. If I can keep coining in to get a positive game, hit royals in a cycle, and keep getting free rooms this might be a awesome gig.

Only problem is I live 3 hours away from the damn place. 240 miles both ways add quite a bit to the expenses. One small reason why I play here is also because they spread 1-2NL.

TS2: If I lived in Vegas I would constantly chase progressives, using FPDW as a plan B. Spread some money throughout casinos playing their highest paying negative game for freeplay/offers. I actually considered moving there near the strip but I can't leave my duty station so

tringlomane: I can't seem to find anything based on my limited research anything beyond the 100.17% game with a reasonable denomination. I did find a casino off strip that claims they have $0.25 10 coin FPDW which bumps up the hourly to like $15 but I find it hard to believe even with checking VPfree2. You could go to South Point on double point days (0.60%) and hit the 99.7~% machines for $25-30/hr but your bankroll would be enormous and defeat the purpose.

Yeah the biggest hourly opportunities seem to be on strong promo days. They aren't going to make it too easy to do make money at video poker for any Vegas local. If everyone could easily average $30/hr or more at video poker, I'd assume there would be a lot more people trying, especially in today's economy.

If I recall correctly, Bob Dancer likes to play 9/6 DDB Quick Quads on double point days at South Point since that is available for 10-play dollars ($60/hand; 99.65% base return). He has the roll for it though, obv, and it's a fun game I think.

The $2.50 ($.25 x 10) game seems like the strongest in terms of returns/required bankroll. I'm gonna check this place out in the future to see if it's true or not. No slot/VP points, which I prefer not to have anyway if the game is strong enough.

One flipside is that cashback is constant, and greatly helps out with the variance of the game. South Point's double days will make you a negative return, but you make back that and then more with cashback which is great if you're playing -$20/hour with $48/hr in cashback. If I get enough for a $1 game I'm gonna hop on it as soon as possible.

Also considering comps and other goodies. If you can earn points on FP games then it's a great idea to play them with a high volume that you can receive freebies from the casino. In the case with my local casino with the progs they count it as an -EV game so they sent me the room and freeplay. I haven't touched any other game besides the JoB prog so I know it's not based on slots. Most (if not all) FP games are excluded from promotions so you won't gain an edge there but if you can find a decent promo (maybe extra freeplay/cash for points such as Palms new member 10k points for $100 freeplay which I gained on a 9/6 50 line game) you can put up with a negative EV game.

Flawed thinking. The only scenario I can think of offhand where this would be the case is if you were generating so many points that it might trigger a review of your play on a terrific game. And by "terrific", I mean something more valuable than the casino intended to offer.

This.

A given percentage of return in cashback is more valuable to the player than an equivalent percentage of return in the paytable. Research "certainty equivalent".

You really need to play games that are set at a high theoretical loss from the casino's point of view. For example: I played about $125,000 coin in on 9/6 JOB at a certain casino on a certain machine in one day. The amount of mail I received for this was staggering. That machine was taken out a little bit after that. Stuff like this still exists, especially on machines that have a slightly worse than full pay setting. Why do the casinos do this? Because no one playing perfect strategy or anything close to it would choose to play 9/5 JOB or 15/9 deuces over 9/6 JOB or 16/10 deuces - anyone who would willingly play them is more than likely a very valuable customer.

That said, it always pays to do your homework, as going to some random casino and playing the worst paytable you can find for a lot of money will probably not end well for you. Reading everything and talking to other people is very valuable, as a lot of the information you just can't get on your own. I was reading another forum about a guy's trip report. Turns out from his description (and a little research I did after) he was playing quarter 10 play VP at 70-100/hr, although I doubt the poster actually knew how good he had it.

That's hard to beat. That said, I don't think playing VP for a living is a very good idea for a lot of reasons, but I think someone who plays a lot and spends a lot of time planning can expect to have a low 6 figure expectation. For a guy like Bob Dancer, who does it full time and can play very big, he might expect to make mid six figures, although that number includes a lot of travelling.

Cashback and mail are your two best friends.

Well what I meant to say was that that particular situation was the highest paying game but it has no cashback or points of any kind. Even then FPDW has a 1.0076% advantage so even a good 99.96% game with 0.3% cashback won't come anywhere close to it. I want the guaranteed return but I feel you can give it up if the returns on a machine are high enough and you are properly bankrolled.

The casino I go to offers 9/6 JoB progressives, and the strike point is about $1500 which is goes up to all the time. I'm glad the casino sees it as an -EV game because I received offers from playing it. I am a lifetime winner (not much but still) at that place and still they sent me the mailers which I will gladly take .

I heard of a mistake a casino made once with a 3 line DW machine. They turned it into FPDW, and it was for $5 which was a very nice return for whoever can put up the bankroll! It seems like playing perfectly is not enough, and scouting casinos for their promotions and taking advantage of their loose settings on the machines is where the money is. Bob Dancer made his millions playing when a rewards program gave him an extra 1% or so edge on a $100 game. Also the most important besides those 2 things is having a bankroll. Just like in poker we play till we can consistently beat a level then try to take shots to see if we can make it or not, and rinse and repeat.

I just got back, too. No royals, but three propositions. (All rejected.)

Was it at the Palms? I heard they just busted a huge prostitution operation there so I'm pretty sure the girl was a cop. I saw a girl who was hovering around this dude that hit a jackpot on another VP machine so maybe they figure less competition since the place is pretty hot?

Thoughts on bankroll needed to play multi-line VP? Since the returns aren't clear cut like a single-line (making anywhere in multiples of 5) is it a better play, or too much variance?

The return is exactly the same as a single-line game, but the variance does change.

If you are playing the same amount of money per round with the same paytable, (e.g. 1-hand 9/6 JoB for quarters vs. 5-hand 9/6 JoB for nickels) you should play the five-hand game because it will have the lower overall standard deviation in dollars.

The issue with multihand games is that players tend to place bigger wagers per round that they would with the 1-hand equivalent. If that's the case, then your bankroll numbers definitely need to go up.

http://wizardofodds.com/games/video-poker/appendix/3/

A few thoughts.

1, the amount of bankroll required to play progressive video poker games is very high relative to normal video poker. Especially if you have to play non-standard games like double double bonus to hit progressives.

2, The amount of knowledge needed to play at a workable advantage is substantial (and by "knowledge" I mean a combination of insider info about machines/venues in addition to just knowing how to play a variety of games perfectly or near-perfectly). When you get an edge playing a game like video poker, the edge is usually quite small - and often not worth the risk pursuing that edge puts your bankroll under.

3, Most importantly, everyone you talk to will tell you that the grind of playing video poker at an "advantage" has gotten much more difficult over the last few years -- and that things most likely will even get much much more tougher in the next few. For example, many casinos (especially in Vegas) have drastically cut their mailed freeplay offers to video poker players across the board (regardless of whether these players are "advantage" players or not). Since advantage video poker for most players now involves stacking together various benefits with your game return, rather than playing games returning > 100% at the outset, things like this can be crushing.

Just want to make sure that those of us who are just getting acquainted with the idea that games can be played at "over 100%" don't excitedly just start to pursue ever small edges that they can find.

I think that's the biggest mistake that can be made here: Person with $15,000 bankroll sees a twoplustwo post suggesting you can make 6-figures playing video poker, and take a shot. Bob Dancer will readily tell you he has had losing or break-even years -- and break-even years often involve being down quite a bit of money before you get back to even. People with substantial bankrolls will probably be able to weather the grind (unless they play outside of their own bankrolls). But many novice to intermediate players tend to ignore or underestimate the importance of bankroll requirements.

During Dancer's losing and breakeven years do you know how many hands he averaged during those years? Like if he averaged 4million hands a yr during his losing years that would be super sick b/c that's pretty much getting to the long run in vp.

So in a nutshell what's a good bankroll? Is the 3x-5x royals enough?

not if you are me. I am almost through my 2nd royal cycle and are still looking for the 1st one ever.

Depends on the game, and the amount of ruin you want to have, but generally speaking, I would say "No." Especially for progressive games, because you're often playing a significantly negative game for all results that exclude a Royal Flush.

That is harsh. I got 3 royals well under my 1st cycle so the doomswitch is turned on for me in the future. Should have cashed in my rungood on the $5 machine for a $20k royal

There are so many winning hands you have to give up to chase the royal on a progressive, so maybe the amount has to be higher to make up for those losses. I was chasing a $1900 prog until someone hit it, then moved to the $1500 (they are both linked to different setups) until someone hit that too when I hit the buffet . The only thing I was proud of on this trip was to stop playing the machine when the prog isn't above my strike point ($1500) because anything less than that my theoretical is below what I am comfortable with. It gave me a great excuse to head back home after the second one hit.

I think the best play for a quarters player is definitely FPDW, unless a casino has a great promotion on their -EV games which can be +EV with cashback or the promos themselves. Bob Dancer usually is on a $5 NSUD machine because it's a 99.73% which equates to a small edge with 0.3% cashback, and even more with drawings and giveaways.

Dumb question, I will read the thread when I get a chance but wanted to know if there is a quick way of knowing if a video poker machine is paying out optimal pay outs? Of course I dont want to walk around the casino comparing payouts for every machine. For example, for blackjack sitting at a table where the bj pay is 6:5 should be avoided. Second question, if we play optimal strategy in both games which one is is closer to equal EV?

Played VP for a couple of minutes last time in Vegas and seems like a fun game without horrible odds.

Thx

How do you find out a blackjack table is 6:5 without walking round the casino?

VPfree2.com should help you establish if you're in the right casino in the first place.