I'll tell ya, I think I am loosing my urge to play VP.

LOL sample size but this weekend was just brutal playing 8/5 bonus.

I may switch to 8/5 aces & faces or just play straight up 9/6 JoB...

Those are the best games around me...

bleh..

Still better options than Barbiaux. 9/6 JoB is the mathematically best option, but the variance is so low compared to every other VP variant, it really seems like you're chasing the royal for a decent winning session.

And nothing wrong losing interest in a (slightly) -EV game.

Yeah good point. I may still go and play but on either multiplier days or days where you get gift cards for points earned or something...

I guess I wouldn't mind grinding 9/6 JoB so much if I could leave with a bunch of gift cards in my pocket!

ho hum, just keep rubbing it in. :-( Maybe since I am so far into my second royal cycle I will get 2 back to back.

Actually I already know that I will get one when I only have 1 or 2 credits left in the machine. if that happens i will never play again.

Don't trust the indians

This.

There is an Indian casino here in Minnesota that just got fined for having the machines set to pay out less than they are supposed to. The thing is, the fine is not enough because they still come out ahead from the extra hold.

Im not naming the casino because I got this second hand, and I could not find the article that was in the newspaper about it.

Sick. What's the min payout in MN for slots, 80%?

Along those lines, I have a question. I saw some things mentioned before about in some places the VP machines are treated just like slots or bingo or something. In that they pay a certain win regardless, or, are set to deal a certain number of specific payouts.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong here - I'm understanding this to mean that they pay the proper amount on the winners listed, but the machine is set to only deal a specific number of each winning hand, and those number of winning hands are set at lower than should happen? Example being it is supposed to deal quads x times per 1000, and instead is "set" to deal quads x-1 per thousand, effectively decreasing the percentage payback?

The other question about this - how would I find out which jurisdictions allow this type of thing? Specifically I am inquiring about Oklahoma, so maybe if someone knows if this is possible there, they could let me know? Or tell me where/how to look it up and what wording I'm looking for?

Thanks for any help!

I know Aqueduct in NY is like that, they are called Video Lottery Terminals.

Basically this, so you can't determine it's return based upon the paytable.

If you can find the casino in question on this site: http://www.vpfree2.com/
then it's a class III machine and will be dealt fairly. Winstar have class III machines and their best machine available according to VPFree is 99.73% NSUD for 50c a credit and was most recently verified in Sept. 2011. This is also the best paying machine in Choctaw in Durant, OK.

If they are not designated as video lottery terminals, does this mean that they are dealt fairly then?



Ok, so if they are not listed on that site, that means that they are not class III machines and I should expect to get screwed? Or, is it just that they might not have all the Indian casinos listed?

Is there a way to find out when I visit a new place (if they are not listed on vpfree) what type of gaming class their machines are? Is it going to be listed somewhere on the machine, or would their slot club be able/willing to tell me?

I would ask a casino host if it isn't clear to you. If the casino is not listed in VPFree AND a large amount of the video poker section have full pay paytables, then I would be very suspicious. This is because every casino in the US today (except maybe downtown/off strip Vegas) has 85% or more of their video poker machines set up to pay out crap that's 97% or less. Also, if it's a class II machine, you should find an electronic bingo card on display somewhere on the machine and your results will be based on a bingo draw. If you want to be doubly sure, find a multiline penny machine, play a single penny per hand, hold all the cards for every hand you are dealt. If you don't see a "genie" or some sort of "bonus pay" within 10 hands, it's almost certainly class III. From what I am reading on the net, most games in OK look to be class III, except in racinos, so you should be okay.

Thanks for your help, I really appreciate it!

I don't remember any kind of electronic bingo card anywhere in any of the casinos that I've been in, and the paytables are almost all crap. There is only a very few machines that are full pay, or near full pay, for the games so those two things combined would indicate that they are legit, so that makes me feel better about it.

If you don't mind, where are you reading/finding this info?

Various sites after googling "video poker in oklahoma". The big issue with oklahoma is: Class III for video poker looks to only been legal since 2004, so both Class II and III video poker can exist in the state, so this is why it's a mess.

http://www.gaminglawmasters.com/pdfs...%205.10.10.pdf

http://www.indiangaming.com/regulatory/view/?id=75

http://www.ok.gov/oiac/Compacts,_Con...ex.html#gaming

This last link highlights tribe that offer class III gaming, but I think others in that list in the above link still offer class III, but it isn't explicitly highlighted, like Choctaw for example.

BUT, class II machines always have to play like bingo machines, and like I said, with the various tests I've described, it should be easy to determine. (Another class II test is toss a winning hand and you're guaranteed to get back that win or better.) Is this the casino where you found the 99.96% APDW machine? What is the casinos name?

Thanks - I could have done that I guess I thought you already had a specific site or resource that you used to research that, as you seem to play this game a lot, and have a lot of information about it.

It's weird that when playing those machines if you toss a winner it gives you one right back.

I got this from americancasinoguide.com

According to the terms of the compact between the state and the tribes, however, the minimum and maximum payouts are regulated as follows: video poker and video blackjack - 83% to 98%, slot machines - 80% to 95%, keno - 75% to 95%. Each tribe is free to set its machines to pay back anywhere within those limits and the tribes do not not release any information regarding their slot machine percentage paybacks

States with maximum payout caps tilt me. If casinos want to make less profit, let them, imo. I just got back from Tunica this weekend, and I grinded a 99.96% APDW for ~7 hours and lost ~$180. I obviously didn't hit deuces, bah. Mississippi forbids slots/video poker below 80% and above 100% payout under the "Minimum Standards For Gaming Devices" in the Mississippi Gaming Commission Code.

Missouri is allowed to offer VP > 100%, but they haven't voluntarily done so since about ~2004.

Well, when government regulates and controls, the people with an interest in the business find ways to get what is in their best interests.

Maximum payouts are the result of a process that is opaque, complicated, designed to set barriers to entry, and create rents for the privileged few.

Basically yes.

But not like a 100% return cap makes too much difference, the 98% cap in MN is obv more effective in that regard. Nevertheless at the casino I played at this week, the quarter Super Times Pay machines there (which pay 8/5 for JoB I think...97.56%) got way more play than the full pay 1-line machines (99.54% for JoB). Hell my brag picture in the thread tells you I even like Super Times Pay. At Harrah's STL the nickel STP machines that pay ~96% are almost always full.

Super Times Pay and Ultimate X Poker has really kept the game viable for casinos in recent years, imo. The video poker player unconcerned with paytables just wants multiple hands with variance through the roof, just like the slot players.

I'm not sure how much more casinos make by limiting the paybacks to 98%.

I very rarely play vp here because the returns are so terrible. I would play much more if they had 9/6 JOB or NSUD and would therefore lose much more. I dont mind playing a slightly -ev game for entertainments sake, but if I am not being given a fair gamble my feeling is they can go **** themselves.

It isn't probably tons more money since a good amount of their money comes from multiline penny slots (> 50% total casino revenue in St. Louis). These machines consistently pay 87-88% in the St. Louis area. If there wasn't a couples' dynamic for gambling and a tradition of table games in a casino, it could be in the casino's best interest to rip out all video poker and table games to focus on slot machines. In Missouri, table games are only 10-15% of total revenue, and they definitely take up more than 10-15% of the space.

And you would play 10x more if they offered NSUD vs. say 8/5 JoB? That's the increased volume you'd have to put in for the same expected loss.

Over the course of a year it would probably end up being more than that because I would play regularly. Now I probably average 1 hour per month.

I didn't realize until you raised the issue, but looking through the VPFree2 database, I see nothing over 100% outside the state of Nevada.

Back in the day, All American with a 100.7% schedule was scattered throughout Mississippi and Missouri, plus a few other places. It was typically found on Bally Game Maker machines, and as I understand, it was permissible because the return of all games on a machine was averaged, resulting in a number below 100%.

Assuming I'm searching correctly, full-pay All American is now extinct.

Looks like it. I played that in Boonville, MO of all places years ago; very difficult game to master vs. most as well. I also played full-pay pick 'em for quarters on those same Bally machines.

Does anyone know how the borgata calculates cashback and comp dollars deals for vp? I have been looking online and can't find anything.