I had this argument with my friend, who so happens to be pretty intelligent.

Anyways, at the local casino they deal Texas Holdem Bonus, it's a table game vs. the house. For those who don't know, you basically get dealt a hand vs. the dealer and you just have to beat them after seeing a flop/turn/river -- where you are mandated to ante, bet blind (2x ante), turn, and you can check the river.

The local casino doesn't prevent you from colluding with your other 5 or 6 people who sit with you at the same table (thus increasing your odds of knowing what cards are to come, etc.).

Friend claims that if you sit with a group of friends, by knowing which cards are dealt out/left in deck/etc., you could theoretically get pretty even with the House.

Seemed foolish to me until one of the pros on CR (maybe Hastings?) made a similar mention. Anyone totally think that's a ludicrous thought?

Not ludicrous..fyi, ante is only mandatory..u bet 2x ante to see flop (after receiving your hole cards), and have option after to check or bet to see turn and same option to see riv. Hypothetically, if flop rolls out 992, and u see all 9s and 2s out amongst others, u can bet turn w/ most high card hands expecting +ev for your bet. Not sure how close u can narrow the house edge though, but I'd assume pretty close if u can see everyone's cards. Mbn they allow u to look at each others' cards..here in vegas, they try to discourage that, for obvious reasons we are talking about.

But discourage isn't the same as being 'illegal' amirite?

not sure...I'd guess illegal here in vegas, but diff casinos enforce it at diff degrees ..similar to pai gow where they dont want u looking at each others' cards so u can set your hand accordingly for most ev...prob all illegal here

Could you describe the payouts? How is there any house edge if you can choose when to continue?

What you want is a game where you can get a glimpse of the dealer's down cards. Then you have an edge. Otherwise, you're wasting your time.

the biggest casino edge is the bonus itself--- say you ante for 5$, so to see the flop you need to put 10$ and everything is paid 2-1.... I believe you only get paid on your ante if you have 2pr or better (maybe its a straight idk)

anyways, theres always a bonus circle that you can bet like 1$ on and can get paid 40-1 for AA 30-1 KK, ect ect down to AJs, and obviously the bonus is a terrible bet...

THB is far more complex than BJ, so to play it correctly is almost impossible.

Intuitively, the house has the edge because:
- Players must ante just to receive hole cards, but you rarely get paid on the ante (see below)
- You cannot bet after the river is dealt
- The dealer never folds
- The optimal strategy is NOT straightforward and NOT easy to learn - unlike blackjack, for example

How is the game played and what are the payouts?

Let's say the table min is $5. You must pay an ante of $5 to be dealt cards. After seeing your cards, you may fold, losing your $5 ante. Or, if you'd like to see the flop, you need to make a flop bet of exactly $10. The flop is dealt. The player may check or bet exactly $5. The turn is dealt. The player may check or bet exactly $5. The river is dealt. No bets may be made after the river. The dealer compares his/her hand to the player's. The best five card hand wins.

If the dealer wins, the player loses all the money on the table. If the dealer's hand is equal to the player's, it's a push on all the money. If the player's hand is better, then the player wins 1:1 on the bet made before the flop, the bet made before the turn, and the bet made before the river. In Atlantic City, the player wins 1:1 on the ante bet only for a flush or better. In Vegas, the player wins 1:1 on the ante bet only for a straight or better. With a weaker hand, the ante bet is a push.

-FountainOfReason
www.hitorsplit.com

I disagree. If you practice with combinatorial analyzer you can come up with some rules of thumb which approximate correct strategy very closely. I am within a few hundredths of % of optimal strategy expectation over tens of thousands of hands simply using my brain.

As to whether a table full of colluding players could beat the game, as with caribbean stud, theoretically yes, but I wouldn't want to attempt it personally.
The players have to exchange information and process it perfectly. That is not a trivial task. They have to maintain the welcome mat, and bet big enough so that the slow pace of the game (remember, the table is full) yields a reasonable hourly return for everybody. You'd incur a lot of unprofitable downtime practicing how to pull off this play.

Something only for a specialist, highly competent team, I would have thought, probably playing with some additional extra edge other than collusion. Players colluding on a casual basis are probably negative expectation players and should be encouraged by the casinos.

This is more commonly, and more accurately, known as even money.

... ok? It's not more accurate to say that.

Bumping this because I'm curious as to if anyone's been playing this game lately. I just got back from Windsor and after bubbling out of a tournament, I found this game and played it for quite a while. I managed to turn $200 into just shy of 500 which is far better than I ever do in blackjack. I decided against playing any of the bonus bets since they are obviously sucker bets, though it was discouraging to know my AA I got twice would have paid 30-1.

I'm sure I just ran well, but by just folding any 2/3 through 2/7 general garbage, and basically betting decent hands up the whole time I seemed to generally do fine. Lots of up and downs but thats expected. According to wizard of odds the house edge is 2.037% but its not as bad as it seems since you basically are able to double the wager for when you have a good hand. Im sure its just a good game to expect to mostly break even.

I've been playing this with good results. I haven't seen any basic strategy though.

I play this game whenver possible at the local B&M. For the most part, I have had positive financial results from doing so, although it's certainly due to a lower sample size. My basic strategy is to play every hand (see a flop) with anything other than 23o through 26o. Wizard Of Odds confirms something along similar lines.

I never play the bonus bet, as according to WOO the edge to the house is between 8% and 9%. I swear to god though, I am always the only player at the table who is not playing the bonus... everyone else plays their own bonus, and then offers to play my own (with their money) on occasion.

I agree that there might be opportunity for improvement through playing with a team (or even with friends sitting right next to you). I always pick up my cards and casually look at them. At the same time, I try and get a peak at the cards of both players seated next to me, which obviously is easier to do with a friend on board. If we're both playing 68o or two diamonds, I might be slightly more inclined to muck and not see a flop given that some of my "outs" are taken.

I was in the same boat at you. Me and 3 other people at the table were openly sharing hand information with each other, id simply look over and if i couldnt see their cards id ask them what they had and they'd tell me. the dealer said nothing to us, he really didnt care. one time it happened and the floor standing behind the dealer watched us and said absolutely nothing. so we continued to do so.

i played the same strategy as you preflop and also decided to not once bet my bonus option since this is obviously where the casino is making money on this game. an older gentleman next to me was berating me for not betting the bonus after getting AA followed by AKs then JJ and another AA all in a span of roughly 10-15 hands and after trying to explain to him why it was a terrible idea to bet the bonus and telling him how you get AA 1 in every 221 hands on average therefore a 30-1 payout is a sucker bet, he simply told me , well you would have made over 300 dollars and thats where the money is, i stopped colluding with him.

I had a nice +EV situation.

I had 5 bucks on the bonus and was dealt ACEhrtQUEENdiamond.
AQ off pays 5:1.

I lose hand to a dealer hitting a set after I hit my queen and bet flop and turn, dealer takes my texas money away and pays me 75 to the bonus (AQ suited 15:1). I told everyone good luck and went to the poker room.

yeah... there are a few dealers at this game that are LOL bad in a way that really helps the player
so much so that it might be a positive game when these dealers are in the box
I've benefited a few times

I love this game. I win so much money playing this game. I usually just play blind and still win. Its what i usually start playing when I first get to AC or Vegas. I double up then move on do that a couple of times and always bet the bonus you will hit it alot more than you think. bet a min of $5 on it. Pocket aces pays 300-1 alot of places have is you and the dealer get aces its 3000-1.

I think its the best card game against the house. That I have played.

You can ask ppl what they have and for the most part they can show you what they have. I havent been to a B&M that doesnt allow it for this game. there's not much statergy so I dont think they mind and if someone doesnt play the bonus I will give them a buck or 2 and if they hit we split the bonus winnings.

ive never played this game but this bonus payout cant possibly be right unless youre saying you get paid $300 on your $5 bet which would then be 60-1.

that most likely is not right, since casinos dont offer any kind of +ev bets. at caesars windsor i believe the payout was 30 to 1 on getting AA and 1000 to 1 if you and the dealer get AA

Above is correct 30-1 for pocket aces.
some places in vegas pay 3000-1 (yes 3000-1) if you and the dealer have pocket aces but most places are 1000-1.

The Wizard of Odds basic strategy, playing anything other than 2/3 - 2/7 offsuit, seems counterintuitive insofar as placing the Flop bet seems to be throwing in good money after bad for -EV hands like 2/4 offsuit. Why not play just the top 50% of starting hands? Is it to protect the bonus bet or because the times when a poor starting hand flops good are frequent enough to recoup the initial wager?

edit: ...hands like 2/4 suited or 3/7 offsuit. (2/4 offsuit is folded.)