I WISH it was 1960, where we could take our card counting knowledge and pilidge casinos. But alas, it's 2012. Is it still possible to beat the house?? I know we are in a vastly different era of the modern casino and I don't know if they've tweaked enough of the logistics and rules of the game to make it +EV still. Interested in hearing some feedback...

P.S. What about beating "California BJ," i.e. the variant of blackjack used at places like Bay 101 or any other California poker room. I believe they may constantly reshuffle the deck making it impossible to card count???

I'd like to pilidge you.

It was when you made your first thread but it's not now. Sorry.

Likely this is pearls before swine, but whatever. Try to get something out of this, and if you can't, you aren't made for this aspect of gambling:

Advanced Tactics in Casino Advantage Play

Why do you say that? That's a good bit of judgement w/out knowing a thing about my background lol. I majored in statistics with an emphasis on game theory at Berkeley...I'm not a total retard. My knowledge, however, is very limited when it comes to what modern casinos have done to reduce or eliminate the counter's edge. Hence the post.

Short answer is yes.

You're right, I shouldn't have posted anything after all. If you're not interested in researching the subject on your own at all and you just want the final answers provided to you, it's probably unlikely you'd have any interest in a book that helps you figure out that answer.

I'm very interested in the book or any feedback. Maybe I misunderstood you, but I thought you were taking a shot at me w/your "pearls to swine" comment. Again, I mainly wanted to know what current casinos offered in terms of BJ. I (obv) haven't been to a casino in a while so I'm totally in the dark. Furthermore, there are plenty of books on the shelf claiming that "you can beat the house," when in fact they just are looking to profit off book sells. I read one a few years ago that was so mockable.

If you do some research before buying a book you should be able to find reviews on reputable web sites. A good starting point for a beginner is "Blackbelt in Blackjack" by Snyder. As far as current casino conditions, you'll have to check out what's around you. Some casinos use continuous shufflers, some use automatic shufflers, some deal by hand. Some are 8 deck shoes, some are 6, some are double deck. Some are dealt from a shoe, some are pitched by hand. Some stand on S17, some hit it. Some places have very bad penetration, some have good penetration. Some sweat counters who bet red, some don't bother.

All in all, it depends on the casino, the dealer, the time of the day, the phase of the moon, the colour of your piss. You can generalize and say things are worse than they used to be. You'll need to learn a lot to be able to estimate your edge properly, and you want to identify and exploit that edge as quick as possible. You just don't have the time to go look at a game, go back to your room, run sims, practice, and then go back to the floor and try to spot the dealer again. You need to be able to spot the game, sit down, and play it right. That means a lot of study and a lot of practice.

Seems to me to be a reasonable question to me. If you just start buying books on the subject of course they are going to tell you it is possible. They are in the business of selling books. You think any of them are going to say "no it's no possible?" So asking this question of the members of a gambling related website about their experience, seems like a reasonable beginning to the research necessary.

As WheelDraw1020 stated, the short answer is yes. But unfortunately, it's not 1960, or 1970, or even 1990. It is a lot harder than it used to be when many books on the subject were written. Casino's have changed the rules to give themselves a bigger advantage and use advances in technology to make it more difficult for not just counters. Casino's don't like anyone that wants to think a little bit.

You have to tailor your attack for today's games. Bigger bet spreads. Avoid playing at least some of the negative counts. (see wong out/in) Find and play only the best games with decent penetration. That means no 6-5 blackjack. No crappy 8 deckers with lousy penetration. You have to scout and you have to be disciplined and once you find such a game you have to keep sessions short to avoid detection and be able to continue to return to and play that game. Basically I am telling you it is much more work that it used to be, but can still be done. I am in my ninth year of supporting myself from blackjack play, so I never experienced the better conditions of yesteryear and am not as frustrated at today's conditions as some players that have been playing longer. These are the conditions I know and I have tailored my game for them and even relocated 2500 miles to the one place that has enough games to accommodate my game and the large rotation of casinos that I need to play many short sessions. But many other players, just don't find doing so worthwhile any longer.

It's interesting to note that the book I originally suggested makes many of the same suggestions that kewljason made. The author makes money from it, so you'll have to decide whether you believe someone who has something of worth to tell you would sell it to you. If you think people with the right info only give it away for free on the internet and people who try to scam you and have nothing of worth write all the books, then don't buy it. I don't agree with that at all, and I suggested the book because I believe it is more than worthwhile. It's up to you to decide if you can waste a whole $10 on it on the off chance that my answer wasn't a complete scam.

In the end it's just a great analysis of the type the OP wants about the application of counting and other tactics in the casino.

Some relevant quotes:

It is my firm belief that a serious approach must absolutely include research other than asking questions on the internet.

From a mathematical perspective, all those points are certainly valid in my view. The MIT group was so successful b/c they collaborated and had a massive BR that was funded by outside groups. Edges are so tiny for card counters, making the swings enormous. Trying to do it alone, and with a non grand BR will be very difficult IMO, and probably not very profitable if you stick to the Kelly criterion.

But I was wondering if it's even possible for anybody, group or not. For instance I have seen more and more casinos implement reshufflers, i.e. immediately after a hand, they scoop the cards and stick them back in the shoe/shuffler. This would make card counting useless. I haven't been to Vegas in a few years. I was wondering if all BJ tables used this type of shoe now.

Can you make money at it? Yes. Is it worth it? Starting today, my personal opinion is no -- you will invest too much time for the reward. Poker and sports offer more opportunity. To really make money at 21, you can't just count cards -- you're going to have to learn every advantage available and be able to adjust your game in an instant. Casinos will always keep a couple games around that can marginally be beaten, just for the advertising value -- but they're getting harder to find every year. Yes people sell books, and what's in the books is true. People sell books on how to make money flipping houses as well -- and people are still making money doing that -- do you want to try it?

I'm by no means an expert, but my thoughts on this subject is that most people just don't have the mental ability and IQ required to beat black jack. Of course, everyone thinks of themself as "smart" when in reality most people are just of average intelligence or less.

Which is why I think your best bet is poker. In poker, you play against the masses and there are other factors involved such as mental and emotional control. So in poker you've got THREE areas which if you can just be "above average" nothing special mind you, you can make lots of money.

Or put another way. Imo, if you aren't smart enough and able to beat poker, then you have no chance beating blackjack.

Hmmm, higher intelligence certainly makes the learning curve faster, but the mechanics of counting and the memorization of basic strategy and proper betting, do not require high intelligence. Just hard work and practice. I think a person of average intelligence can learn it in 200 hours with a coach if they are willing to put in the effort.

A person of average intelligence is probably often (usually?) intimidated by the task and doesn't attempt it or complete it, where high intelligence persons are more likely to want to tackle it.