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Old 01-19-2012, 11:07 AM   #16
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Re: pai gow poker?

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Is it odd being asian (or whatever minority) standing at a craps table full of white people screaming yowell eleven or whatever they do?
Seems like it might be
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Old 01-19-2012, 11:50 AM   #17
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Re: pai gow poker?

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Is it odd being asian (or whatever minority) standing at a craps table full of white people screaming yowell eleven or whatever they do?
I once saw Bill Cosby's show in LV . Here is one of his comments about playing craps.
=========================

Get a pair of dice and bring them to your room.

Make sure you lock the door so no one will bother you.

Put the dice on the dresser.

Yell as loud as you can "YOWELL ELEVEN".

Let us know if the dice move.

If they don't move yell louder.
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Old 01-20-2012, 02:29 PM   #18
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Re: pai gow poker?

Anyone have some of the best links to learn to set hands and such? Also, some helpful tips on whether or not you should be the banker? Briefly skimmed an article and it said the more you are the banker, the better...but obviously a noob at this game and need further study.
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Old 02-02-2012, 12:13 PM   #19
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Re: pai gow poker?

Hit my first Royal for 150-1 quick 750

no one was playing Envy

I was not pissed but I had the royal in diamonds and my 6th Card was A of clubs...if my last card was a King of clubs instead of the 5 of spades I would have hit the 2000 to 1 with a royal and an AK suited
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Old 02-05-2012, 02:27 AM   #20
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Re: pai gow poker?

Doesn't it need to be KQs?
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Old 02-05-2012, 09:43 AM   #21
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Re: pai gow poker?

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2. Colluding with other players - If you and other players at the table showed each other your hands, you would know which 11 cards were remaining and would be able to narrow down possible holdings that the dealer could have. However, to be able to show each other your cards, figure out the 11 missing, and then reset hands accordingly within the context of the speed of the game would be pretty damn tough without some serious team practice. Also, a lot of card rooms don't allow you to show each other your cards for this very reason.

There may be a simpler and still effective method of team play where you and your friends just try to account for the aces and joker amongst your hands. You also might not need a whole table full of teammates to do this. However, I don't know how much research has been done on this and I have no clue as to quantify how big of an edge you'd have and how big of a factor the difficulty in actually consistently pulling this off would be. This is more of a thing that, in theory, should create an edge in Pai Gow Poker.
Try playing PGP against yourself where you know the 7 cards you are facing. It is surprising how rare it is you get to make a strategy change where you gain an extra unit. Most of the time your decision is exactly the same as it would have been with no information about the dealer hand. Even when you know you are beaten or the best you can do is tie, there is no way to improve.

That's with perfect info. When you add an additional 4 cards into the mix you can see there's no edge here.
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Old 02-05-2012, 10:10 AM   #22
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Re: pai gow poker?

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Originally Posted by offTopic View Post
Doesn't it need to be KQs?
Yes, the royal match is KQ suited, not AK suited.
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Old 02-11-2012, 02:33 AM   #23
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Re: pai gow poker?

I witnessed the strangest hand I have ever seen in Pai Gow yesterday.

The dealer flips over their hand and has 3-2 for low and 7-8-9-10-J for high.

The guy sitting next to me screams "Holy S***, I WON!"

The dealer flips over the players hand and he has a flush for high and his low is 4-2.
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Old 05-30-2012, 07:01 PM   #24
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Re: pai gow poker?

Didn't see anything on wizardofodds about this - who wants to do a back-of-the-envelope house edge calculation?

There's a table in the Eldorado in Reno that has the following rules:
- No commission taken on winning bets
- When the dealer has K-high or lower (no straights or flushes ldo) all players are paid half their bets, regardless of whether or not they can beat the dealer's hand.
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Old 05-30-2012, 07:24 PM   #25
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Re: pai gow poker?

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Originally Posted by offTopic View Post
- No commission taken on winning bets
Six or Seven card? There are a lot more ties in six card -- assuming the dealer wins ties, there's no need for a commission.

Quote:
- When the dealer has K-high or lower (no straights or flushes ldo) all players are paid half their bets, regardless of whether or not they can beat the dealer's hand.
Unless they pay winning hands and half the bet -- paying half is a huge advantage for the house.
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Old 05-30-2012, 07:34 PM   #26
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Re: pai gow poker?

7 cards, and just half the bet. Intuitively, I knew it had to be worse than the "normal" game, but I don't know how often the dealer actually gets a K-high nothing or worse under normal circumstances (when I'm at the table, the frequency of such hands converges to 0 pretty quickly).

Obv the situation where this is actually advantageous to the player (dealer has K-high, player has Q-high or whatever) is damn near infinitesimal. OK, pretty rare...

The dealer was explaining it to me, and when he got to the half-bet part, I started laughing and said, "That's a pretty big commission!" He said, no, you get half whether you win or lose!

I'm sure there's been a time where I had a J-high vs a dealer K-high, but I don't remember it.
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Old 05-30-2012, 09:12 PM   #27
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Re: pai gow poker?

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Originally Posted by offTopic View Post
Didn't see anything on wizardofodds about this - who wants to do a back-of-the-envelope house edge calculation?

There's a table in the Eldorado in Reno that has the following rules:
- No commission taken on winning bets
- When the dealer has K-high or lower (no straights or flushes ldo) all players are paid half their bets, regardless of whether or not they can beat the dealer's hand.
It's an automatic half unit win on our total bet when the dealer has K high or lower in the back? Always? Even when we would have lost the front? Because in these scenarios we lose the front a little more than half of the time anyway, so gaining a full half unit in this spot is a good thing. If the rules are this way, this could be better than normal Pai Gow. But I think I'm misunderstanding the rules.
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Old 05-30-2012, 10:27 PM   #28
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Re: pai gow poker?

The dealer gets a K-high or worse 6.71% of the time. According to my calculations based on the Wizard's numbers, a player would beat the 5-card hand of a dealer at the Trump Plaza who had a K-high or worse 99.75% of the time. This doesn't account for the 2-card hand at all, but the highest a dealer could have is QJ, and the player has a 67.4% chance of having Kx or higher in the 2-card hand (without any removal effect, given the dealer's hand range constraints).

So we win the back 99.75% of the time, and win the front AT LEAST 67.4% of the time (since I'm not accounting for beating the dealer's 2-card when we have QJ or less). Having to accept only a 0.5 bet win here isn't good.

However, when we beat the dealer when he has bigger than K-high, we win 1 full bet, not 0.95 bet. This only happens 28.6% of the time though (actually less, since that figure includes hands when the dealer has K-high or worse).

This is also when the player never banks (which might not be possible?). Just looking at these rough numbers, it doesn't look like a good variant for the player.

Last edited by Lattimer; 05-30-2012 at 10:36 PM.
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Old 05-30-2012, 11:13 PM   #29
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Re: pai gow poker?

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Originally Posted by Lattimer View Post
The dealer gets a K-high or worse 6.71% of the time. According to my calculations based on the Wizard's numbers, a player would beat the 5-card hand of a dealer at the Trump Plaza who had a K-high or worse 99.75% of the time. This doesn't account for the 2-card hand at all, but the highest a dealer could have is QJ, and the player has a 67.4% chance of having Kx or higher in the 2-card hand (without any removal effect, given the dealer's hand range constraints).

So we win the back 99.75% of the time, and win the front AT LEAST 67.4% of the time (since I'm not accounting for beating the dealer's 2-card when we have QJ or less). Having to accept only a 0.5 bet win here isn't good.

However, when we beat the dealer when he has bigger than K-high, we win 1 full bet, not 0.95 bet. This only happens 28.6% of the time though (actually less, since that figure includes hands when the dealer has K-high or worse).

This is also when the player never banks (which might not be possible?). Just looking at these rough numbers, it doesn't look like a good variant for the player.
Wow, I'm a tard. When he has a king high back, the highest front he can have is QJ. But I'm not sure where you got the player beating a K high from the dealer 99.75% of the time. If the dealer gets a K high in the back 6.71% of the time, so do we. And when we do get K-high or less, we win half of them, barring a nearly impossible front copy with a high card. So our overall equity is closer to 100 - 6.71%/2 = 96.645% in the front.

Now for the back, like you pointed out, the dealer must play QJ or less. Here the best way to determine the dealer's average front is to start counting out all the K-high hands or lower. But since I want to watch overtime hockey, I have to come back to this. From rough inspection though, I don't think the house edge changes a lot.
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Old 05-30-2012, 11:23 PM   #30
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Re: pai gow poker?

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Originally Posted by tringlomane View Post
Wow, I'm a tard. When he has a king high back, the highest front he can have is QJ. But I'm not sure where you got the player beating a K high from the dealer 99.75% of the time. If the dealer gets a K high in the back 6.71% of the time, so do we. And when we do get K-high or less, we win half of them, barring a nearly impossible front copy with a high card. So our overall equity is closer to 100 - 6.71%/2 = 96.645% in the front.

Now for the back, like you pointed out, the dealer must play QJ or less. Here the best way to determine the dealer's average front is to start counting out all the K-high hands or lower. But since I want to watch overtime hockey, I have to come back to this. From rough inspection though, I don't think the house edge changes a lot.
http://wizardofodds.com/games/pai-gow-poker/appendix/1/

For 5-card hands 9-5 through K-10, I multiplied their probabilities by the Banker PR stat, then summed the products. That came to 0.25%, which represents the probability of the dealer getting K-high or lower AND beating you in the 5-card hand. The top of that page explains what those figures mean.

Yes we get it 6.71% of the time too, but given what we're comparing, it's only relevant if the dealer also has it (6.71% of time). The chances of both of us having K-high or worse is 6.71% * 6.71%, or 0.45%. Cut THAT in half, and you get 0.23%, which matches my figure above when you account for rounding and banker winning ties.

edit: these are not hyper-accurate numbers, since I'm not accounting for the effect of card removal... but they're ballpark figures.

Last edited by Lattimer; 05-30-2012 at 11:33 PM.
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