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My road to beating ultimate texas holdem My road to beating ultimate texas holdem

01-27-2019 , 02:03 AM
Doesn't everyone know by now that this game is rigged? The shuffler in this game along with similar games is rigged. That's why at the casino I go to, people stopped playing this. Nobody hardly plays it anymore...
My road to beating ultimate texas holdem Quote
06-12-2019 , 06:47 PM
The best analysis on this game is contained in Beyond Counting Exhibit CAA by Grosjean.

Certainly if you can hole-card the game is beatable. Plus any fellow gamblers cards you can usually see easily at many casinos.
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06-29-2019 , 03:17 PM
I look at K2o, my neighbor shows K2o My road to beating ultimate texas holdem.

Dealer flops 335. I say “Two more threes.” He obliges lol

Next dealer pushes in. I say, “you have big shoes to fill”. About 15 mins later, I have the 83o, and she flops 555. Turn/river are 57. I tuck and don’t Play because of course she’s going to beat an 8. She flips 72o. Now I’m wishing this was a two-way bad beat game My road to beating ultimate texas holdem
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06-29-2019 , 04:29 PM
You should play that river and it isn't close. When your kicker is good you get paid 10x on the blind.
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06-29-2019 , 04:39 PM
You are, of course, correct...such an infrequent occurrence, I was only thinking of the number of cards that beat me
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06-29-2019 , 05:24 PM
I was curious about the weakest high card you should ever play.

Board AAAA2

We are risking 1 unit to win 14 (our initial blind, 10 units from winning the blind, our initial ante, 1 unit from winning the ante, one unit from winning the play bet), so we need 1/15 = 6.67% equity to call.

54 has 6.21% equity, not quite enough. 65 has more than enough equity and is significantly +EV.

Unless I made a mistake, the worst hand that barely squeeks above the equity requirement is 55, with 6.72% equity. Of course, we would have raised on every prior street unless we're idiots, but that's the weakest kicker we should ever call in this game. The reason it is stronger than other 5x is that it does not block as many hands we beat.
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06-29-2019 , 06:06 PM
I have one of the cards (but obviously didn't commit the whole thing to memory lol) and it says 7+ as long as it plays
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06-29-2019 , 06:35 PM
I found a couple calculators online (Wizard of Odds has one). They say to play 6x but fold 55.
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06-30-2019 , 04:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by offTopic
I have one of the cards (but obviously didn't commit the whole thing to memory lol) and it says 7+ as long as it plays
The full strategy wouldn’t fit on a card, although simplified strategies will and they lose a negligible amount of EV compared to optimal. I’d imagine your card doesn’t have a bunch of exceptions for different types of quads hands?

Quote:
Originally Posted by konbanwa
I found a couple calculators online (Wizard of Odds has one). They say to play 6x but fold 55.
I found this too. However I don’t see the mistake in my last post. Do you see an error?
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06-30-2019 , 08:01 PM
Well, for one thing you can't raise on every street in Ultimate Texas Hold 'em. It's preflop, flop, or river. Seems like a clear error for estimating 55. [Obvs you 4x pf]

So I don't think it matters at all because you'd have no decision on the river with 55. I think you got confused with another HE game or just in your analysis.
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07-01-2019 , 11:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NajdorfDefense
Well, for one thing you can't raise on every street in Ultimate Texas Hold 'em. It's preflop, flop, or river. Seems like a clear error for estimating 55. [Obvs you 4x pf]

So I don't think it matters at all because you'd have no decision on the river with 55. I think you got confused with another HE game or just in your analysis.
Just because it required suboptimal play to get there doesn’t mean it’s not a valid position we can consider. Either Wizard or odds is wrong or I am. The latter is far more likely but I don’t see a mistake.
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09-01-2019 , 11:05 PM
Played a bunch in Reno this weekend. Not too much of note (other than winning some LOL).

People play bad, like giving money away bad.

Peppermill still has the 8-6-5 Trips pay table, only place I've seen recently
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09-02-2019 , 04:58 AM
I played at Ocean Resort-Casino in AC a few months ago and I was shocked to see they had 9-7-4 Trips. The house edge is only .9%. 8-6-5 isn't bad either, but the edge is twice as high - 1.9%. 8-7-4 is 3.5%, which is still respectable for a side bet. I thought the 9-7-4 pay table was a myth. Hopefully Ocean still has it.
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09-02-2019 , 11:59 PM
I haven't seen the 9-7-4 since Planet Hollywood 5(?) years ago
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09-06-2019 , 07:52 PM
If you like UTH, I recommend the video version. I know of one at Harrah's in Murphy, NC. It displays the other hands right on your screen. It is much faster than a live game and only has a $1 minimum.

If anyone know where more of these UTH machines are, please let me know.
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12-07-2019 , 05:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ninehigh99
I finally worked out a basic strategy table for Ultimate Texas Hold'em, and will work out the collusion strategy sometime in the future. I'm not expecting much EV improvement for collusion, because its basically an even-money game, and the dealer has to qualify for the ante bet, etc. (Unlike Mississippi stud, where there's no dealer hand, and the pay table is much like Jacks-or-Better; collusion there improves the game from -4.91% to +1.5% EV).

Anyways, here's the Ultimate Texas Hold'em basic strategy:
http://discountgambling.net/ultimate-texas-holdem/
http://discountgambling.net/mississippi-stud-ev-barona/

Steve
in one of your posts, you wrote it helps to see your immediate neighbor’s cards for marginal raising hands J8s, Q6s, and K2s.
then you didnt elaborate on it.

when should i NOT bet 4x for those 3 hands?
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12-08-2019 , 10:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mehaffey
If you like UTH, I recommend the video version. I know of one at Harrah's in Murphy, NC. It displays the other hands right on your screen. It is much faster than a live game and only has a $1 minimum.

If anyone know where more of these UTH machines are, please let me know.
Haven't seen any but I'll post if I do.
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12-10-2019 , 12:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mehaffey
If you like UTH, I recommend the video version. I know of one at Harrah's in Murphy, NC. It displays the other hands right on your screen. It is much faster than a live game and only has a $1 minimum.

If anyone know where more of these UTH machines are, please let me know.
Beware, video UTH pushes the Blind bet on a straight instead of paying 1-1. At least the machines I played on in PA and Vegas 5-6 years ago did.
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12-13-2019 , 12:53 AM
There are 3 tables of this game at the Emerald Queen. Their pair plus gives you a 100 to 1 bonus if you have the 2 red aces in your hand. One guy bet $50 on that bonus bet and ended up with $5,000!!!
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12-28-2019 , 11:39 PM
This is a great thread! I remember reading this 8-9 years ago when I discovered this game at a casino in PA. I've been on a nice run over the past couple months and would like to share my experiences. I'm a poker player at heart(admittedly not a very good one), but there is no rush in the casino comes close to playing this game. I stopped playing BJ completely after I found this game.

Estimated Stats
All in all, I've probably played about 50-60 sessions averaging about 5hours each. I mainly play $10 tables but will gear up $15 and even $25 if I'm running hot.
-I would estimate that I'm up about 15k-20k all time, coming out ahead about 60-65% of the sessions.
-My biggest losing session was $1500 and I've had about 5 losing sessions of $1000-once in an hour.
-My biggest winning session was $8k when I hit the royal flush. My last 5 sessions have been: +8k, +1.5k, +$500, +$500 and +$900(today). The $1.5k win was with a straight flush on the flop betting $25 ante-blind.
-The craziest sequence I've seen at a table is 6 quads in the space of about 3 hours. I had one and one was on the board(although I didn't play trips on this hand and lost my blind). I've also lost 11 straight hands.


Approach

I know the right plays but only do them about 80%-90% of the time. My rationale for this is that the variance in this game is a royal b!tch, so if I've lost a few 4x row or if I'm just running bad in general, I might not be as apt to do it on some of the more marginal +EV hands(K2s, K5o, etc) especially if my bets are up to $15.

-I usually buy in for $300 at a time, just so I'm thinking about what I'm doing. Money can go fast in this game so when I rebuy, at least it gives me a moment to pause.
-I try as much as possible to minimize the amount lost on losing streaks and maximize the amount won on winning streaks. If I'm losing, I'll usually take my bets down to $10 and try to ride it out. If I'm winning, I'll up my bets to $15 and occasionally more. I generally don't play $5/hand because it feels wasted when I hit a big hand. I feel I have a very good sense for how to do this now and it's really key.
-I've found that for my bankroll it doesn't make sense(ever) to bet more than $15(ante and blind). Even marginal increase to $25 introduces a level of variance that I can't handle.
-I do actually play trips, especially when I'm on a roll, but I try to limit it to $5(40% of the time) $10(20% of the time), and always an amount less than my blind-ante. I know it's a sucker bet but I find the game immensely more interesting when I play it, so I try to do it in moderation. I've been lucky to hit some of my big hands such as a royal, a sf, and several quads when I was playing it. I take a lot of flak from dealers and players alike for not playing it all the time.
-As much as possible, I try to get action from my neighbors. When people are scared to go 4x with their A-10, K-10 type hands, I gladly offer to go half and half. The casino I play at doesn't mind this and the way I see it, if people are leaving EV+ plays out there, it might as well go to you and not the casino. There's so many people that play these incorrectly that it's pretty much there for the taking every time you sit down.
-I can usually get a $25-50$ comp after every session win or lose, even though this casino is notoriously cheap. If you're nice enough, I've found that 75% of pit bosses will gladly do this for you. It may not seem like much, but it adds up and I'm never paying for food. I treat myself to many steak dinners from this.
-I've never come across any flashers, but dealer mistakes are fairly common and no, i do not correct them when they make a mistake that's in my favor. IMO, the casino is not a place for you to take the moral high ground as they will gladly take/steal your money if given the chance.


Observations
95% of people I've come across play this game horribly wrong and are not redeemable. This game must be a massive money maker for the casinos. Here are the most notable ones:

-The biggest mistake is failing to 4x when they should. Most won't even raise hands like AQ, A10, KQ, etc. Today I saw the absolute worse case of this where a lady didn't 4X or even 2X her pocket 10s and second guessed whether to 4X her pocket aces. When I asked her why she was even thinking about it she said "That hand usually works out bad for me so I don't like to bet it". I couldn't help myself, so I said "look, it's your money, but you cannot win at this game doing what your doing." She replied that I should do what what works for me. She also went on to say that most of the times she won't bother to look at her hand before the flop because it usually "gets her in trouble". At this point I realized that she was way to far gone-she lost $600 in an hour and went broke, complaining all along the way. A dealer once give me grief for 4x A10o when I lost saying I "need to wait to see the flop, I've dealt this game a long time". The pit boss overheard and nodded in agreement. Frustrate, I said "is there a game that offers you 51% change in the casino, and would you take it all day everyday if there was!?" They said "yes, ofcourse we would", so then I said "what about 60%+? that's what that hand was" and then all I got was a lot of silence....
-Playing a disproportionate amount on trips. It boggles my mind when I see people play $10 on ante-blind and do $30+ on the trips, so even when they win, they still lose! I've even seen folks doing $15 on the back and $100 on the trips because "that where you make the money" as they tell me-I kid you not! Needless to say, these folks don't last very long.
-Not being aware of the variance. They buy in for $200 and are surprised when they lose it all in a couple hands or they will buy in for $1000 but play $25-50$ per hand.

The other 5% know what to do in the vast majority of situations, but don't always do it(I'm in this bucket). In fact I have never come across a single player that makes the right mathematical plays on every hand.

I have not even come across another player that wins at this game, mostly due to the mistakes above. Obviously, I don't always win, but people usually lose around me left and right and quit.

Last edited by UTHAddict; 12-28-2019 at 11:59 PM.
My road to beating ultimate texas holdem Quote
12-29-2019 , 12:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by UTHAddict
This is a great thread! I remember reading this 8-9 years ago when I discovered this game at a casino in PA. I've been on a nice run over the past couple months and would like to share my experiences. I'm a poker player at heart(admittedly not a very good one), but there is no rush in the casino comes close to playing this game. I stopped playing BJ completely after I found this game.

Estimated Stats
All in all, I've probably played about 50-60 sessions averaging about 5hours each. I mainly play $10 tables but will gear up $15 and even $25 if I'm running hot.
-I would estimate that I'm up about 15k-20k all time, coming out ahead about 60-65% of the sessions.
-My biggest losing session was $1500 and I've had about 5 losing sessions of $1000-once in an hour.
so your play limit is by time?
about 5hrs, no matter how much you win or lose?
5hrs is enough to ride out the bad variance a majority of the time?

Quote:
-As much as possible, I try to get action from my neighbors. When people are scared to go 4x with their A-10, K-10 type hands, I gladly offer to go half and half. The casino I play at doesn't mind this and the way I see it, if people are leaving EV+ plays out there, it might as well go to you and not the casino.
how does it work if your neighbor has a straight or above?
do you also get 1/2 of the 'blinds' win?
if not, then wouldn't doing 1/2 the Play bet be -EV?
My road to beating ultimate texas holdem Quote
12-29-2019 , 04:08 PM
Quote:
so your play limit is by time?
about 5hrs, no matter how much you win or lose?
5hrs is enough to ride out the bad variance a majority of the time?
Oh no, I don't limit my time, it was just a rough estimate of the average. Sometimes I play 8hours+ while others I might only play for 3-4, but the amount of hands seen is greatly dependent on the number of players at the table as well as dealer speed. I'll play heads up or at full tables, but on average there are about 3-4 players.

Quote:
how does it work if your neighbor has a straight or above?
do you also get 1/2 of the 'blinds' win?
if not, then wouldn't doing 1/2 the Play bet be -EV?
This is only applicable to the 4X "Play" bet, so I have no stake in the anti or blinds and it always pays 1:1. For example, lets say my neighbor has A10o and they are reluctant to go 4 times(or a lot of times they may only go 3x), I'll offer to go half and half on the 4x bet with them or take the additional 1x if they go 3x. A10o vs a random hand wins 62% of the time, so I can expect a 24% avg return. Some people are even afraid of hands like AKo or 88, which are 65%-70% to win vs a random hand, so you can see how this could be quite valuable over the long run.
My road to beating ultimate texas holdem Quote
12-30-2019 , 07:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by UTHAddict
I couldn't help myself, so I said "look, it's your money, but you cannot win at this game doing what your doing." She replied that I should do what what works for me. She also went on to say that most of the times she won't bother to look at her hand before the flop because it usually "gets her in trouble". At this point I realized that she was way to far gone-she lost $600 in an hour and went broke, complaining all along the way. A dealer once give me grief for 4x A10o when I lost saying I "need to wait to see the flop, I've dealt this game a long time". The pit boss overheard and nodded in agreement. Frustrate, I said "is there a game that offers you 51% change in the casino, and would you take it all day everyday if there was!?" They said "yes, ofcourse we would", so then I said "what about 60%+? that's what that hand was" and then all I got was a lot of silence....
-
I enjoyed your post but you only make yourself look bad when you tap the glass like this. I hope you continue to enjoy positive variance and I'm glad you get to take advantage of food comps and +EV neighbor bets. But remember that their poor play subsidizes the game for you. Don't get frustrated when they critique you, instead smile and say "Thanks for the advice. Hopefully I get luckier next time." If everyone played the game like you, the casino would have it off the floor tomorrow. The other players don't care about your math, they are there to blow some money and have a good time.
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12-30-2019 , 05:59 PM
to me the danger is not that the house will get rid of the game when people start to play better. if i were that influential, i would use my powers for good. but i'm not...

the danger is that dumb people are dumb and as much as you try to help them, they will refuse. not only that, they will also resent you for it.
so yeah, i keep my mouth shut most of the time.
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12-31-2019 , 10:35 PM
“I would 4x that, but I play very aggressively before the flop.” ...and only when asked, otherwise I never comment
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