This is mostly just a vent post. Walking past a blackjack table last night, I encountered one blackjack player berating another about "hitting a 15" )(dealer showing 2). This is a face-down two deck game.Player being berated has a 2 showing takes a 6 making 21. Player who was berating him stands on a stiff hand. Dealer makes 21. The player who lost goes off saying, "He would have busted if you'd stood" (this was true). He rants awhile, player who hit turns over his down cards, A 2. He hit a soft 15. I probably should have kept my mouth shut, but couldn't resist saying, "It was a soft 15. Of course he should hit it. You're an idiot."

If I'm the one being told how to play the hand, I will say to the idiot (I rarely deviate from Basic Strategy, and only to make an index play based on the count), I will say, "It costs you $X (whatever my bet is) to tell me how to play the hand. As long as it's my money at stake, I will play it how I damn well please, whether you like it or not". This usually shuts them up.

Not to mention that the next card is ****ing random whether he chose to hit or not.

I really hate it when players think their outcome is affected by what other players at the table do.

a reason why I hate playing blackjack is you get literally the whole table sometimes begging you not to double down on your soft 18, not to hit ur soft 18s, or not to hit 14s or 15s when the dealer shows a ten (he'll bust is the common logic from these people). Basically to not even play basic strategy.

and then when the dealer wins, the majority of the table gets seriously upset at me and only me...

or if everyone is on a streak and I decide to play 2 hands, it'll ruin the "flow". or if I'm playing 2 hands and I decide to drop to 1 hand, it'll also ruin the "flow".

this happens very frequently in northern california casinos.

Try Spanish 21. It's a new universe of people flipping their ****. Hitting a hard 17 to get a 6 card 21 to win 2:1 while causing the table to lose is my personal favorite.

I'm not really a nice person but if someone berates me or another player at the blackjack table even if it is the dumbest play ever, I go ape$hit and really lay into the person for whatever I can do. If its a chick, I call her ugly. If its an old dude, I tell him he's going to die soon and to shut up. I've always had dealers take my side when this person gets pissed and calls the floor. And I'd like to mention I'm no hero, I'm the type of guy that routinely berates players in poker or any other competitive game but there is absolutely reason to tell a person how to spend their money. I really wish dealers were instructed to stop the problem before I have to handle it though.


It is not a team game table vs. dealer and the cards are completely random. Yes, there are instances a bad play can "save" or "kill" the table I guarantee they all even out and it is recall bias on the part of the players.

When I get berated for not playing the "right" strategy it is especially infuriating because I AM playing the right strategy for the count, not the losing basic strategy. Yet another reason why I like playing late at night or during the day.

Part 1 google illustrious 18.

Part 2: grave shift makes more mistakes which boosts yor winrate

I find it amusing how people get super mad at people getting mad at them.

Next time you get accused of disrupting the flow, explain that you play bad on purpose.

I'd rather poke my eyes out than play blackjack, but on the couple of occasions I have sat with a friend I have been berated because I lack basic knowledge of the game and play terribly, which sets off the jerks.

What really gets them tilted is staring straight at them with no expression and saying "lol". They hate that for some reason.

When I'm not in full blown beast mode, I go on a rant about how basic strategy was created by the casino to take people's money and anyone who plays it is stupid. This is funny because one person - usually the biggest noob- usually really buys what I'm saying and starts making really weird plays which tilts the table even more.

The dealers are also in a weird spot because they are the ones that often give basic strategy advice. Whenever one offers advice, I interject and say that's what he's being paid to tell you, think about it for yourself, we have time.

If I ever play blackjack live again, I'm going to completely ignore any other person's instruction or wincing or grimacing. It's my money I'm betting, I can hit a 20 if I want to.

Last weekend I got deuces, and wanted to split, and the other guy sitting there was like "don't do it." Sure enough I pulled a K, then an 8 to bust, which would've made 20 on one deuce.

Honestly my logic is that if you're against a 7 or higher, and you have a pair, splitting them gives your more chances to beat the high dealer up card.

I work as a croupier and I always lol hard when the people at the table try to cooperate to make me bust. Especially when they actually make me bust and they high five each other cheering. Lol tablegamements

Dealer here. Ignore flow of card players and never take advice from ANYONE at the blackjack table, even dealers and floor supervisors. I'd estimate 1 out 200 people know perfect basic strategy. (large East Coast regional casino). Most basic cards in the gift shop are WRONG. My casino sells a double deck card based on different rules then the 6 deck shoe game we offer.

The average blackjack player makes a poker fish look like a genius, but I respect the people who play occasionally for fun and don't know every play. I NEVER give advice unless asked.

It's the people who I see everyday dropping thousands that can't even take the time to learn basic who are pathetic. They berate me when somebody asks what to do on 16 vs 10 (surrender) or 12 vs 3 (hit) and I give the correct advice. It's an idiot and loser filled world. Useless trying to make sense of these people. Sometimes, I just shut up and go with it for the almighty toke.

I appreciate that you're not one of the mathematically challenged douche bag dealers that tries to sell people on surrendering being a "sucker play". I'll take my 50% rebate over...I don't even remember what it is, 38% to not lose? It's so bad I don't even need to remember it. The only way it's ever worth staying in on is a pitch game where you get sloppy and flash your hole card.

Actually hitting 15 v 2 is a not so infrequent index play in a negative count. Surrender is an incredible tool, especially ES10. The EV of surrender is of course -50% since you are losing 50% of your bet. Therefore the chance of winning (or not losing, as you say) must be 25%. Let's say you bet $100, so 25% of the time you will win $200 (your $100 bet and the $100 the casino pays you). 200 / 4 = $50. So if you have a 25% chance of winning or better you would not surrender.

Fun fact, in a H17 game you should surrender 17 v A. Generally as the count increases you surrender more liberally but actually here you will begin to stay at even slightly low high counts.

I phrase it "not losing" because a push isn't a loss, but is functionally different from a win; I use it to mean "winning and pushing as a combined outcome group".

Maybe it's 28% to win + push on hands like 16 v T then. Whatever it is I remember it's bad enough to not much care and surrender in any condition in which you'd be playing significant units.

good point about the pushes. surrender is great not only because it is higher ev but also because it is a zero variance play. skilled players are at war with variance. if you have the edge you simply have to apply it long enough and you will eventually get the money but in the short run variance can rear it's ugly head and wipe out your bankroll. ES10 is a real game changer which leads to much higher edge games and much softer variance. because it is early surrender you get the opportunity to use it more, even surrendering hands like 12 or 17 vs T on occasion (17 v T true 5, 12 vs T true I think 8), 14 v T is BS.

I remember years ago a dealer thinking I was absolutely out of my mind to surrender 17 vs A. It amazes me how many people seem to think 17 is a good hand.

I agree. Of course, it's not unusual that hindsight will reveal that a different action would have led to a better outcome. The superstitious idiots never fail to notice this, and usually fail to notice when the wrong (according to them) play helps them.

17 is not a good hand, it is a very bad hand. 17 is like your step mother, you want to hit it but you can't. in fact in very negative counts in H17 game you should hit 17 vs A (-6) if surrender is not available. Applying index plays correctly will often cultivate a wild and idiotic image, which you should subtly accentuate by saying stuff like 'i just pay for fun' or 'i feel like a 4 is coming'. You never want to appear like you know what you are doing at the blackjack table, although your instantaneous correcting of dealer mistakes against you and the lightning fast speed of your play would be a tell to anyone who was equally expert in he game.

Of course it's a bad hand. A little bit of though makes this clear. There are seven possible outcomes for the dealer (including dealer blackjack). 17 beats a dealer bust and pushes a dealer 17. The other 5 are losers.

Index plays can definitely help the image. Hitting 12's vs. small dealer upcards in negative counts will generally convince everyone you're an idiot. It doesn't even have to be very negative for 12 vs. 4 (index 0 Hi-Lo, IIRC). Few players, dealers, or pit people seem to realize that 12 vs. 4 is a very close play. Hell a lot of them don't realize hitthing 12 vs. 2 or 3 is correct basic strategy.

Yea the surrender in particular gets complained about the most. They intuitively think "losing without giving yourself a a chance" seems bad. Also people think surrendering on small bets is somehow worse then on a large bet. "Why come to the casino if you are going to surrender a $5 bet". Ive heard that 100 times in the breakroom ^.^

For dealers though I think they are just lazy because when people surrender it takes you off autopilot. You have to pull in the bet and do a calculation you don't do a lot and then push the money out. It's a relatively a lot of chip moving and if somebody does it all night, then the dealers get annoyed. It's still no excuse to spread bad advice.

The best is when I think a guy is a decent player when he surrenders a 15 vs a face without hesitation but then starts surrendering a 12 vs a face and stuff. The worse I've ever seen was hard 7 surrender vs a face because he obviously was going to get 17 and I was just going to have 20 everytime...duh

Oh I almost forgot the idiots who say " If surrender was good, the casino wouldn't let you do it" ok jackass, I guess you never split or double down.

I wish I could see average house edge of the casino in blackjack. At my casino it's probably 3-4% and we have some of the best 6 deck rules in the country (.28% house edge with basic)

I've seen numbers published publicly in the past for Vegas, albeit ~15 years ago. They were about 2%.

It was important because they used that number to calculate comps. Comps were (and may still be) calculated as 1/4 of expected losses, so at the time, convincing a pit boss you played $10 typical strategy blackjack instead of $5 basic strategy blackjack could offaet the house edge.

I think companies have become more savvy about releasing mineable data like that now.

Cum to think of it..anytime I listened to a dealer/other player at table decision on a particular instance, I lost money, and when I did the opposite, I won money. Coincidence, or, something more?

You'll need a larger sample size to tell.

For 1000 hands, ask the dealer what to do and then do the exact opposite. See whether you're up or down. Then run the control experiment, for the next 1000 hands do exactly what the dealer tells you to do.

Report back with results.

General rule of thumb in my experience. Average player plays at 3-4% HE. Asking the dealer and following their advice is around 2%. I don't know if I've ever played with someone who played correct BS