Believe it or not, there's a craps game where laying odds with your DP/DC bet is not just true odds (+0% EV), but is in your favor. I've posted about this before:
http://discountgambling.net/playcraps
where the game replaces dice with 2 cards from a single CSM.
When you look at the spreadsheet, you'll see that the distribution gets skewed for each "high" roll (both cards >= 4) and each "low" roll (both cards <= 3).

So, when I play this game, I play DP. Then I watch the cards out of the CSM. When the count goes positive, the distribution favors the low points (4/5/6), and I pick up my odds laid against these points. Conversely, if the point is high (8/9/10) and the count is positive, I lay more odds on my DP bet.

So I bet the minimum on DP, and lay odds depending on the count in the muck. Sometimes the count is so good, I just pay the vig to lay the bets against the 4 (high negative count) or 10 (high positive count).

It's funny. I joke with the dealers how I change the odds with each roll. I like the 4/10 the most, because the advantage is closely related to the count. The 6/8 are a little less predictable with the count. You'll see this in my spreadsheet.

Anyway, I call this scheme "variable don't pass". It's designed around the fact that the CSM distorts the normal dice distribution. It's really easy to count the cards out of the CSM. Since I can vary by DP odds at will, the dealers don't have to get involved. It's fun for everyone to watch

To be profitable, I'd have to lay 10x odds. I usually just change between 1x and 3x odds. Sometimes I even lay less than 1x odds. I play for fun, and because I spent a lot of time analyzing and simulating the CSM version of the game.

does the fact that each roll is an independant roll which has nothing to do with the previous rolls mean anything to you (the dice have no memory)!

These aren't dice. They're cards from a CSM. A roll is two cards from the CSM. It starts with 44 sets of "dice" = 44x6 = 264 cards. Once the first "roll" comes out, the distibution becomes skewed. As more "rolls" come out, and the cards are placed in the muck holder, the distribution can become very largely skewed, like 2.1:1 against a 4, and 1.95:1 against a 10.

This is remedial. Look at the spreadsheet (OpenOffice):
http://files.me.com/stephenhow/ecawu7
Take some cards out of the shoe for a "roll". You'll see immediately how the distribution gets skewed for each roll.

Yes, dice are independent. That's why most California tribal casinos use physical dice, then map them through cards, to come up with the effective roll. This doesn't change the odds. Dealing cards out of a CSM distorts the distribution like crazy.

oic

This is an endless argument.

I think its odd that people focus on the house edge when comparing Come Bets to Place Bets. Here's how I look at it.

If you have a small bank roll and play conservatively, place bets are your preference. They pay slightly less than "true odds", but in exchange you can take them down -- you can't take down your flat bet on a Come Bet. Also, you get rated for your entire bet. Most casinos do not rate odds for comp points.

Again, you shouldn't play for comp, but i'm saying its something you may consider.

I generally "hit and run" -- I play the pass line with 3x-4-x-5x odds, and then 5/9's for $25, or 4/10s... i place them for $10, buy them on one hit, and then take them both down on the second hit. Most rollers don't go beyond 4 or 5 rolls.

The negative to my style is when there is a hot roller, I am sadly sitting on the sidelines while people rake in the dough. However, when a table it cold, conservative play will save you money.

Again, just my thoughts, but house edge on place / come bet is irrelevant. If you have a bigger bankroll, come bets are a good way to go, becaus eyou do get the 7/11 to hedge your bet. But again, you can remove your place bets at any time. It's about discipline and also remember to have a good time.

My final advice -- when you do win money, spend it! lol. Not at the casino. Enjoy your winnings, don't bring them back!

Jeff

Technicality: You never have an advantage. The "advantage" you're talking about is simply the best chance of winning. Why lay odds? 0EV.

You have an advantage after the point is up. That is a fact. You are a favorite to win at that point. Why place a 0 EV bet then?

When you play the Pass Line, you are an underdog once the point is up. At that point, you place the odds bet to try and move your negative EV closer to 0. But when you are on the Don't Pass, you have a positive EV. Placing an odds bet moves your +EV closer to 0EV. Seems counter-intuitive to me.

???????????

A place bet on the 4 or 10 pays $9 for every $5 bet.

$5 place bet wins $9
$10 place bet wins $18
$15 place bet wins $27
$20 place bet wins $36
$25 place bet wins $45
etcetera.....etcetera.....etcetera.

The EV %age changes, but the actually real EV is static.

If I bet $5 on Pass, I expect to lose 7.05c per event. If put 1x or 100x behind, I still only lose 7.05c. The EV goes from -1.41% to -0.021%. You still expect to lose 7.05c (obviously the EV is higher than 7.05c/$505 as you don't always bet the odds when your initial bet hits 2,3,7,11,12).

Same with Don't Pass. You have the Don't Pass with it's expected loss of 6.8c per event. If you hit a point you bung on the odds at anything and get a 0c/0% EV on that part of the bet.

Did you just ignore the posts that addressed this issue above and re-ask your question?

There is so much fail in some of the posts here. The is so far off the mark its not just funny, its idiotic for someone who chooses highlimit as their handle to make up a wager that does not exist.

Ok, I worked out a graphical proof of the advantage of laying/taking odds according to a simple hi/lo count in the PlayCraps™ game at Viejas:
http://discountgambling.net/2009/08/...jas-casino-ca/

I played again last night, and won +20 don't pass bets in about an hour and a half. I varied between 2x odds and 0x odds, depending on the count. Even when I got there, everyone was already playing the don'ts. Its obvious enough to everyone that the game (i.e., the CSM) is skewed to the don'ts. Add to that the dirt-simple count strategy verified though simulation, and it's a really fun game. The rolls out of the CSM come out faster than Yahtzee. Can't beat the hand rate, and you either jack up your odds, or take them off, depending on the count. I'll be playing bigger (up to 5x odds) this weekend.

I understand what you're saying. I'm pointing out that "being the favourite to win" and "having an advantage" are two different things.

this is good advice, especially if you won getting lucky with your place bets. if you want to play optimally, you'll build your bankroll so you can afford those come bets + max odds.

Since odds are 0 EV it doesn't matter if you place them or not. However if you have the itch to have a certain $ working per roll, it's best to maximize the percentage of that $ that is at 0 EV.

So if you have $10 on the don't and roll a 4, it doesn't matter whether you lay odds or not in the long run. You'll lose ~14 cents on the roll whether you lay no odds or $1000. However if you choose to not lay odds, but instead put $20 in the field, then you are losing more than if you took those $20 and put them on odds.