Here are two stories involving craps. One Casino bent over backwards for me, the other ripped me off.

First the Bad: Beau Rivage MS.

I walk up to the craps table, the shooter just made a point. I'm in spot #1 and I put out $50 in red and say clearly "Lay the 6 an 8 on the come out only". Dealer Suzy takes my 10 red and while changing the color she said "$25 on the 6 and 8, off on the comeout". I say "no, it's $24, it's a lay and I want it working, take the commission with the change". She say's "There is no commission" and in the process the shooter shoots and hits a 7.

I say, pay it off and take it down.

She say's "There's nothing to pay off, it was a place." Immediately ire'ed I say loudly "I said lay". She tells me "Don't yell at me". I immediately apologize for being loud to her but told her, "It was a valid lay bet". She consults with the box who refunds me my bet.

At first I took it in stride as a walked away from the table. But then it started nagging me, I said all the key words "Lay", "$24 each", "Commission", "6 and 8", "working".

So I went and asked for the pit boss, and explained it to him. He had no sympathy and told me the bet was booked as a place. I replied "I believe that's a wrong decision (flash my $5k bankroll) it's not like I'm trying to scam you for $40, but I will peacefully and respectely and with much appreciation for your time, leave your casino".


Now the good: Harrah's New Orleans -- great box in this game.

I'm playing craps and fooling around with a system (I know all systems are bogus, but this one looked interesting nonetheless).

Place the 5, 6 and 8 with a betting unit, like $25, $24, $24 on the 5,6,8 respectively. Each roll, bet a unit on the field. Now, every roll (except come out) you'll win on any non-7 roll. On a 7 roll you lose them all.

Now, I had just hit a 5, lost the field bet, but got payed $35 from the 5. I have $25 in my hand to bet the field again, but before I can get down, the shooter shoots, so I pulled my hands back. The roll was 12.

I never said anything, never asked, never complained. The box then turns to me and asks me if I was coming down on the field, I said yes, I was. She told me to put my $25 on the field, then directed the dealer to pay me off.

I thought that was great of them and it's one of the many reasons I love Harrah's. (not Rincon or Cherokee -- those I just tolerate)

Now, your opinion.

I've hear that the Casino's hate these lay bets. They eat up time going up and coming down for come-out rolls. In Biloxi they have to spread the bets across the back line (if you're laying the whole back), at Harrah's NO, they keep it in one big stack and place the lay token on it and place on the box side of the number lines, outside the lay position, then pay-off or take out what you've won or lost + commission. Commission is payed up front.

Think there is any possibility they screw with players trying to make these types of bets?

You need to stop making late bets. This practice invites confusion, especially if the bet is unusual or complicated, and is extremely discourteous to the shooter. The only way scenario #1 would have happened is if you had bet after the dice were given to the shooter (otherwise the stick would not have given the dice to the shooter until the bet was properly booked). Same with scenario #2.

Bet when the dice are in the center and you will never experience any of the issues you had, and you will never have to yank your hands out of the way.

You're either trolling or you didn't read the the post correcty

Player just made a point means the dice are in the center and the payouts are going out.

Besides, WTF did she color the the red up to green and place them on the $6 and $8 (#1's position on the number bar is very close to the lay line,).

What craps dealer thinks you are placing $25 on the 6 and 8 ... none, they break it down to $24 each and toss you two bucks. She colored up my red to green, if she thought I said place, she would have put $24 on each and give me $2 bucks back.

No where no how was this a late bet as my bets where misplace on the place line before the dice where passed, and I was correcting her that it was a lay and not a place when the dice were rolled.

Think before you post.

Anybody who brags about flashing a few thousand dollars probably handled some things in a way that will tend to make disputes go his way less often than they could.

Is there something else you're looking for? You know they made a mistake as written. Oh, the last part about intentionally screwing with lay bettors? No.

If you've ever noticed, when the dealer calls the dice, a 5 is always "5 no field" and a nine is always "9 center field" -- they do this because 5 and 9 sound too much alike. Likewise, "lay" and "place" sound too much alike -- when you're betting against, always use the word "behind".

Good info. I hardly ever bet against but if I do I never say lay either. Usually go with against and try to make it very clear like, "I'm betting $50 against the 10, $50 no 10, ok?" w/ eye contact. I hardly bet them but that just seemed natural thanks for the info on the proper terms.

I'll take any useful advice and try and improve. But 5 sounds nothing like 9 and lay sounds nothing like place to somebody who's awake. I think a dealer at a craps table resolving 10's of thousands of dollars in bets an hour would be awake.

Just think about this and explain .... Why did she color up the 10 red to 2 green? Either place or lay, the proper bet size is $24 on the 6 and on the 8.

Let's set aside the "lay vs place" for a minute and just focus on the bet she incorrectly thought I was making. The bet was clear (meaning not a call bet), the bet was booked before the roll, I drop $50 in red in front of me and she think she hears place the 6 and the 8. Why did she color up to green when the natural action for either side is $24?

Coloring up to 2 $25 chips was the first visual indication that something was wrong. Prompting me to say "take the commision". "There is no commision" was the first audible indication that something was wrong, and seeing my now green chip on the place position was the last visual indication that something was wrong, but the roll occurred before I can say anything other than "It's a lay".

Other thoughts ....

I've tried announcing the bet as "$24 against" only to be asked "Do you mean lay?" I've noticed that everytime I lay, the dealer has to announce it to the box. I've also noticed that the stick directs the dealer to pay the exotics in the middle, but often but not everytime to pay the field and 11's on come bets.

Anyway, it's over. I've faxed in a dispute to the MS gaming commission and said I would consider the matter settled to my satisfaction if I: A) Get payed off $38 or B) 4 $25 even money match play tokens.

The wager was never booked. You're not going to get anything from the gaming commission.

Also, how can you not see the similarities between place and lay. The sound lay is inside the word place.

It certainly does when you're listening to three people at once and protecting the table. You're only watching your bets.

Yes, you do need to declare your bet. Just add either "against" or "behind" so there's no misunderstanding. I know it's redundant, but it's also clear.

There's obviously a lot you don't understand about what's going on between the crew procedurally -- and in the way you place your bets. You have to help -- nobody can read your mind. There are proper ways to place a wager. And there's never any reason to reach onto the table when the shooter has the dice -- just toss it and call it -- correctly.

With the dice in the middle and all bets paid off on her side ... when she looked me in the eye as I started with "I would like to ...." and dropped $50 in $5 chips. "... lay the 6 and 8 on the come out".

Oh yea, did you ever figure out why she colored up my 10 red chips into 2 green when the correct bet on either a lay or a place is $24 for the six and eight? Was that my fault too?

Yes, it was most certainly booked, after all the pit manager told me "It was booked as a place".

And unless I have a low vocal fry in my speech pattern, place sounds nothing like lay.

Puh-lace vs lay. I know, maybe they are hiring partially deaf craps dealers as part of their "Hire the handicapped" program.

Oh, and yes I will get something from the commission. If the first phase goes against my favor I get to appeal to the commission, then if the commission goes against me, I can advance to small claims court. Somewhere in there I'm going to cost them some money in responding.

So you're saying Casino employees have never messed with players action before? I've seen sticks hit the dice in mid air and Blackjack dealers hit a players 18 while the dealer was stiff with a 6. I've seen BJ dealers pass over a double on a players A6 vs their stiff 6. I've just always assumed they were mistakes.

I had a poker dealer tell me in a NL game I could only raise the minimum because I didn't announce how much when I said raise on a $500 bet into a $900 pot from a local opponent. I'm pretty sure dealers aren't supposed to make those decisions on their own.

Or how about Cashiers who take the 2-3 racks of mixed multi-denomination chips from players that have been playing all night long and remove them from view of the player to count them out.

Mistakes happen, yes she made the mistake but all the indicators where there that she should have fessed up. Who talks about commission on a place bet?

You've already cost me ten minutes I'd like to get back. I hope you enjoy their response.

When sticks hit the dice there's usually a very good reason. When blackjack dealers hit a hand, even if it's bad strategy, it's usually because the player asked for it. Outside of that, mistakes happen. I'm not going to answer never to a question but the situation you described certainly doesn't fit the bill. Even taking your word as 100% accurate all it was was a misunderstanding, and not that difficult a one to make.

If it was booked as a place they did you a favor already giving you your money back. You really want a better resolution than that? LOL @ small claims court over the price of a decent pizza in a spot where you're wrong. Flash the 5K roll to Judge Judy.

LOL! I'm still befuddled why the pit boss didn't reverse his decision when OP did this. I'm stunned that did not turn out to be a convincing and persuasive argument.