it doesn't change peoples' perception. they are the same thing...

Having worked in a california casino for 6 months or so i will say that it definitely does change peoples perception whether it is logical or not.

either way, i don't know why anyone would care about the health of a game where people who don't want to pay double rake are kicked out.

Had you gone to the casino by yourself and banked, you possibly would have had a different outcome. But since you went as a group of three, you were essentially trying to create your own corporation. You were messing with the casino/corporation dynamic, it is no surprise you got thrown out. At the very least there is a symbiotic relationship between the casino and the corporation. Even you pointed out, that the corporation makes it possible for the casino to run the game any time of day for any bet size.

You also didn't mention if you were counting cards or not. I've banked before but only did it when the count was negative and the players were clearly unskilled at even playing basic strategy. And I only did it for 1 or 2 rounds before leaving casino.

Next time you find a ev+ situation, keep a lower profile. Me thinks you did several things wrong if the goal was to not get thrown out.

Will any gaming commission even intervene just because somebody gets booted? I've always heard to ask to see somebody from gaming, but I doubt if they could help you if they wanted to. OK I just texted a girl I know used to be over the count room and she said gaming won't get involved in somebody getting banned.

Casino M8trix should be very sensitive to negative publicity right now after their long spat with the city. If you want to hit them where it hurts, I would try to get in touch with a journalist for the Merc or other local publication and see if they'll write an article about your experience.

Anyone saying that OP "got what he deserved" or insinuated that he did anything remotely wrong by banking these games individually is extremely ignorant of the laws and way these CA player banked games work.

People are saying that he is taking advantage of a loophole are mistaken. The laws were designed with players banking against each other in mind. These corporations did not exist in any form when the games first came out.

The only thing he did which is questionable is pooling his funds with other people. I'm not a lawyer, but I believe what was previously mentioned about the lack of a corporation license made this illegal.

I work in a cardroom as a corporation and I feel there is a lot of misinformation in this thread.

First, all table games are player banked. Before corporations even existed 10-15 years ago, all the table games were player banked. Like others have said, corporations are enlisted so the cardrooms can service action 24/7. Cardrooms themselves have no interest who wins and who loses. They collect a drop regardless. That is their revenue generator.

Second, with minor variations, everyone has the right to bank twice, and then the bank is passed and optioned to the remaining players who bet before. For the most part players choose to waive this option. Most people just want to play against the corporation and mind their own business. When a player chooses to bank, however, we honestly don't care. Why would we? It's the law.

A caveat to that would be, certain corporation go behind - cover action that's not covered by the player, certain corporations go cum cum - match the player's bet and go behind, certain corporations won't go behind. When they don't go behind and you don't cover, you can understand why the other players don't like this. This is even worse when the game offers odds bets, ie 3 card poker, or blackjack bonus bets. Why bet the bonus if bank doesn't cover.

For bigger games like paigow and doublehand, it's the norm for other player's to bank.

Just player banking alone won't get you kicked out of a club. Maybe there's a rule where players can't pass each other money on the table. Even then in reality it's not enforced off the table. As long as we don't see it we don't care. Think you want to double down 11 against a 6 in bj , don't have enough money, and someone else wants to double for you.

OP is either leaving something out or Matr8x greatly overreacted to which I would pursue a clearer answer as to why you were barred. This is ridiculous. And you should probably get in contact w/ the gaming commission or the mercury. Get your story out and know your rights.

Most cardrooms have eliminated the shoe in favor of continuous shuffle machines which minimizes the downtime of shuffling. It also negates the count.

Cardrooms in California are not casinos. They do not offer sportsbetting. As an aside the players who are get barred are few and far between. In general they are verbally abusive to dealers - and they are very lenient - or physically threaten or harass employees. Those are big problems and red flags for management. When someone wins a lot on table games, that's not a red flag.

too good = not good 4 the game

One could argue that another player winning money that normally would go to the corporation is good for the game.

The corporation money is essentially taken out of the gaming community whereas the player banking has a chance of putting it back in.

In your experience who is typically the money/owner behind these 'corporations?'

If it is just an unrelated person to the casino who is making this money do you think they pay something to the casino or its employees to be allowed to operate? I've never heard of any of this before but I'm curious.

Here's what I can find on the ca.gov site. seems old but if this is still law then theyre blatantly breaking it

The only casino in California was some big tent res casino in notrhern cali, and they didn't have this banking foolishness.

All corporation players, supervisors, and owners must go through a bankground check for licensure. It's managed through the gaming comission. For supervisors and owners I believe extensive financial reports and records are required. This is all to say someone knows where all the money is going to .

Is the corp owner related to a cardroom owner? Who knows. Does it matter? It could be just a lot of investors who want to take a shot in the industry. But it should be open. They have contracts to operate at cardrooms which I believe must be approved through gaming as well.

Not to derail. As an aside.

1. Op needs to get a clearer reason why he got barred.

2. If management really barred him for that its extremely shortsighted and stupid. Other games are frequently player banked by others.

3. It could be op just annoyed a whole lot of people. Didn't tip. Or some combination of other things. Harassed or berated fishy players and someone complained. So someone acted.

They have a Facebook and Twitter account. Direct them here and see if they respond. One guy mentioned it without linking on their FB page.

It seems likely there's some corruption going on here, where the Corporation is colluding with the House, effectively defying the law prohibiting you playing against the house.

Whether it's illegal would take some study of the finer points of the law.

Indeed.

end of story

I agree it's extremely obvious you annoyed the 'official' corporation and the corporation has more juice with the casino than you, whether it's for simple business reasons or something more shady, therefore you got kicked out.

As to whether you can do anything about it, sounds like you will have an uphill struggle and it's probably not worth it.

Technically the way its SUPPOSED to work is that a random stranger wants to be the bank for the casino and covers all wins or loses thus making an unraked BJ game pointless since the casino makes nothing either way. This is why they rake it. What I'm assuming most "smart" casinos do is use someone (probably not affiliated in anyway with the casino) give them unlimited funds to bank to any action and cover all loses and wins and give this person a % or a standard fee. Its a clever way to get around there not having to be a house while at the same time being a house.

So when you were technically allowed to be the house you were taking action away from the real house and they didn't like that.

Once again, you don't know the way these games work. They are definitely not "unraked" games. The casino takes $1 collection from each player and $3 from the banker. The house is making up to $9 per hand dealt with no risk.

Yes, some of the corporations might have illegal ties to the casino; but that is a completely separate issue.

Corps pay the casinos money for the right to be the corp there - you were cutting into corp business - corp complains to casino - casino shows you door.

I find at smaller rooms in CA the games are small and no big thing - but at the bigger ones - Bay 101 and M8trix in the bay area - that is big money - don't want you messin around with that.

I saw a poker grinder about a month ago at Bay 101 talking on the phone to his buddy about this situation with BJ away from the tables. Conversation was going on for a while. What the person did not realize was one of the corp players was within ear shot of the whole conversation while they were on break and kept following this person as they paced up and down the hallway - corps dont want their business taken from them

side story about Garden City (which is now M8trix)...quite a while ago, I had finished a 24 hour or so session and went out to my car. Couldn't get there because the police had cordoned off a section of the parking area around my car. Turned out a car parked three cars down from mine had been found to have a dead body in it. Guy was murdered probably for cutting into loansharking activities there (rumor at the time and never heard otherwise).

It's actually a place I like(d) a lot. Haven't been back in 7 or 8 years as I don't live in the US any longer, but I'm sad to hear this is how they're treating customers. The ban from playing poker is especially ludicrous. Oh, well.