Your virtual dismissal of hole card play as a viable way of making money is not borne out by the experience of skilled players. No one should be under the illusion that it's an easy road to riches. But tell me of a play that is. If one pops up, it rarely lasts long.

I did not say hole carding is not a viable way to make money. I made six figures from it in the nineties.

However, 95% of hole-carding is finding opportunities.

There is nothing in Beyond Counting about how to find hole card opportunities. This does not mean I cannot find loaders or that you or other people in this thread cannot find loaders. It means you can't get that information from that book. This is not a trivial point: many blackjack players will go for years without ever encountering a loader. Unless they, through their own efforts, learn how to identify loaders then the book is quite useless to them.

If you can find an opportunity then most of the time the correct play will be obvious, some of the time it cannot be made for cover reasons, and when it is not obvious the gain will usually be very small compared to your overall edge.

If the gain is not small compared to your overall edge you are probably doing something wrong. You need a large advantage to compensate you for scouting time.

Most hole-carders, in fact, play only a vague approximation of the optimized strategy for a given game.

That's quite funny to me. Grosjean does precisely that when (and this is the tip of quite a large iceberg) discussing baccarat counting, sharing information at CS and other games, and casino war. Those plays have made serious money under special conditions.

This is really the problem with the current emphasis on HC'ing as "advanced" advantage play. It is a seventy-year old technique. The AP community just seems totally unaware of all the great opportunites that are passing them by. You seem to think Grosjean is the solution: he's a major part of the problem.

(Btw I'm aware of the situation you are alluding to. Do you really want me to discuss it publicly?)

What is the record for longest internet troll on gambling message boards? This John May fellow has surely passed even Doug Grant by now. Over a decade of relentless nonsense. Quite amazing.

Well, this thread has been substantive and interesting, so far. You just personalized it and reduced it to the level of flame war. I think the impartial observer could work out who the troll is.

Ironically given the context of the thread, I recall Grosjean basically discontinued posting on the internet precisely because of one of your posts, which he cited as an example of gross stupidity (his comment, not mine).

Indeed Johnnyboy, indeed.

I don't know the history between you guys, but this is an interesting thread. I'll give it 4 stars.

I agree with Uffda. Not only am I enjoying the spat purely as a spectator (since 4/15 I have no life...), but I am also learning a lot from both sides of the arguments presented.

GBV bet steelers at mansion in 2006 amiright

Probably, if that was the $500(?) rebate game. I have no recollection of the teams or much else about it now.

How could you not remember that game!

Miracle cover for those of us who got in early at Steelers -5, only to have it move to +1 when Batch was announced as the starting QB.

Mansion forked over something like 7 million? And then left the US market a few months later ...

Oops

Haha, yeah. I had high five-figures on Steelers -5 and a few thousand on Steelers +1 when I re-bought. I hedged 60-70% of it but let the rest ride and watched the game in a bar, going bananas during the miracle 2nd half.

It was a $1000 freeroll, for anyone interested. lol @ that promotion

I do remember the line jumping all over the place and almost getting reverse-middled. I'd heard estimates as high as 100 million as to Mansion losses. It did seem like EVERYONE was doing that one in the whole of AP-land. I think it was at that precise moment I knew the deals were becoming unsustainable.

That was actually a great year for AP. It might weird now but it didn't seem an especially big deal at the time, especially for a UK bonus hustler. I was getting regular monthly reloads from Virgin and Paddypower for around 1000 dollars and a tiny 20x playthru. Intercasino were rebating me 60% on my own losses monthly up 1000 GBP-we shoved down that much on single hands. Littlewoods did a 10K deal which I missed for various stupid reasons. There was a ton of great smaller BJ deals. You could easily have cleared 100K that year. That doesn't even touch on the less-obvious stuff (any one remember the Diamond Deal op?).

Btw There are still some great opportunities in sports betting where you can make that type of Mansion promo money, but they aren't bonus-related.

Oh yeah, good times. That year was unbelievable; truly the last golden year for AP.

Anyone live in Cali/Vegas Travel the live tour that has the book and be willing to rent it out?

Haven't you read what GBV wrote? The book is virtually worthless. Meanwhile, if you hurry, you can pick up his magnificent tome at Amazon for the steep price of 0.01 USD. Only 21 copies at that price remain, so best get to steppin.

Another way to put this: My book outsold Grosjean's first edition by about thirty or forty to one (at least). Consequently many copies were printed to meet demand and there are many in circulation in the second-hand market. As is the case with any book which was professionally published and commercially successful.

Because Grosjean has a very limited audience, he has to sell the book at a huge mark-up in order to make a profit, and print/sell relatively few to create scarcity value. That's how supply-and-demand works.

Incidentally, I've sold private studies for five figures or more to teams of professional gamblers in various fields. Usually it is not a straight cash transaction but a deal where I get a small % of any profits arising from the use of techniques I've developed. Any one with information of actual value who is trying to sell to the high-roller AP niche does the same thing: you make a hell of a lot more than $250 per sale doing that.

And yet another way to look at it is: I sent Grosjean $250 for his book a little less than a year ago. To date I have not received the book.

Sure beats counting, I guess...

What are the Manson's books do you like to recommend ?

Hey guys,

I noticed many of you have Exhibit CAA Beyond Counting. How did you purchase this book? I have been trying to purchase from the website but I am getting no replies from my email. Is there a different purchasing page?

Thank you!

BobBarker

I have a copy of Exhibit CAA Beyond Counting by James Grosjean

Selling price : USD3000( three thousand )

Don't reply if you are not willing to pay for that price

IT WORTH ITS WEIGHT IN GOLD !!

Exhibit CAA is only sold to established Professional Gamblers who have had others in good standing vouch for them.

Yes, and the truth about lizards controlling our world leaders is accessible only to scientologists who make very generous donations....

misplaced modifier.

Maybe that's the way now, but it sure as hell wasn't when the new edition came out. I'm a complete unknown, far from a pro, and for sure no one vouched for me. Nevertheless, I have my copy, bought directly from James' site.

I guess sometimes you just gotta be lucky.