Hey guys,

After reading several blackjack forums on this question, I came to the decision on keeping my KO system for Double Deck.

One of the Blacjack forums member stated:

"KO is quite okay. Playing KO at 2D for 70-min will yeild the same expectation as playing HO2 w/ASC for 62-min. zg "

KO is very easy and I know HO2 is a level 2 counting system and if the difference is very minimal, theres no reason to change.

My question is that for Double deck and using the KO system, usually the book says to start at -4 and the key count is +1. Cant I just start the running count at 0 and make my key count +5? It seems to be the exact same thing unless im missing something. Also with KO, I never have to worry about TC conversions which is nice.

Starting at 0 and shifting your index numbers is exactly the same; lots of players struggle with negative numbers (at least early on) and do that. Just make sure you shift everything, or you may end up making costly plays like doubling A9 v. 6 into too light a deck.

This might sound silly but is there such thing as KO + side counting A's?

Im trying to devise the best system for myself against the double deck game here at my local indian casino.
The game they have is:
-DAS
-BJ 3:2
-Surrender available
-Double after any two cards.
-50-60% penetration.

KO is nice because I never have to convert the true count. but when I should start getting bigger? Lets say my IRC is at 0 and my key count is 5. If right after the first hand, Im at +6. does that mean I should bet big already? Only 6 cards came out so not enough sample size.

For double deck, playing efficiency is going to be way way more important than betting correlation. When I played double deck frequently, I used Hi-Opt II.

What matters most though, is that you're able to use whatever system you choose effectively. There's no point having a fancy count if you can't maintain it.

I'm no expert like z.grifter, but I think if you're still early in your blackjack career, you should just switch to a balanced count system with a higher PE. It's probably suggested by veterans that the difference between a level 1 count w/ no side count performs almost on par with a level 2 count with a sc. You'll most likely end up wanting those extra 5-10% or whatever it is in EV later on in your career.

One thing I regret was not learning zen or hi-opt 2 after breathing hi-lo and hi-opt 1 for hundreds of hours. I just couldn't get myself to dump all the intuition I've acquired from those counts and adjust to another count. It feels like transitioning to cash games after being a successful mtt/sng pro, or learning triple draw after beating LHE for a while.

Another thing in mind is I don't know if there's any material on KO with a sc. It doesn't sound like a count popular enough for people to write materials on. My guess is KO with a sc of ace is probably doable (and it'll significantly increase your PE), but that'll require research on your own part with probably programs like CVData.

Also, look for dealers that pitch more than 50-60% (50% is really kinda low even for a DD). Perhaps game select heavily and just backcount shoe games with the rest of your time, since I don't expect the EV in that game to be high unless you spread more than the recommended amount for a DD.

Your choice of system will be in part dictated by how you play. The pivot in an unbalanced system should match the most important decision you'll make - probably Wonging in or out if you do that, or the jump to max betting.

Adding side counts should be done, well, on the side. Do it when you're so comfortable with KO that you have excess brainpower.

Likewise, move up to Level 2 systems when you've mastered Level 1. You'll lose more in mistakes than you gain in EV if you haven't.

Unbalanced Zen is a great trade off between power and ease of use. PM with the rules of the game you're playing if you want me to send you the indices.

Wow thanks so much for all the useful information all.

Just to give you guys a little background on my profits so far:

-50 hours
-$5100+ profit
-BJ Double deck (game mentioned earlier)
-Using only KO system
-Spread betting ranges from 25 a hand to two hands at 300 when the count gets good.

No sign of backoff yet.

I have a feeling that the $5100 in winnings so far at this one casino is luck or luck + counting or from counting all in all.

I will research the Opt Hi II with side count of aces.

I'm assuming you're spreading upto 2x 150 since 2x 300 is too big of a spread. This actually sounds like a great game now especially since you're allowed to spread upto 2 hands and that there's late surrender offered.

I think as long as you're doing everything correctly and you continue to play noticed, you'll inevitably get the tap. The score on this game is sorta too good not for them to overprotect imo. Are you playing rated or unrated??

You're running slightly above ev, although anything can really happen in this game since stdev is really really sick at 1k/100 hands

Thanks. I actually do 2 X 300 bets. Sometimes even more. I do play rated. But I think the casino so far enjoys the action because sometimes I lose big but for the most part, I win big. Your graph is appreciated although im no 100% sure what im suppose to be focusing on. Am I expected to lose from -3000 to possibly winning 9k? Sorry im still new to all of this.

But like you said, because the deck is only 50-60% I need to make my bet size bigger.

It's good to see people attempting this. It can be fun or frustrating, so I think it's always better to play considerably over-rolled rather than under-rolled. Coming from a poker background, I think it's really easy to underestimate the variance of blackjack (as the variance in poker is so much lower and the winrate is so much higher compared to blackjack).

There's no way the casino doesn't know who you are and what you're doing at the green/black chip level. If I were to guess, they probably have you flagged as a counter by now. However since you're playing rated (there's nooooo way they'll tolerate this action if you play unrated within a short time frame IMO), they choose to tolerate it for now. They probably want to see if you're a potential whale or an ap.

Don't take my word for it... These are just my educated guess. Every casino and condition is different, and I'm not exactly too sure what yours is. Listen to what the veteran posters have to say and take their words over mine, although my guess is they'll probably say the same thing (btw, which forum is this?).

I think 50% pen (60% is ok) sucks for a DD relatively speaking. However I've never heard of a DD game with surrender (there's probably only a few offered in the country assuming you're from the us) and since late surrender is offered (which is ridiculously good), I don't think there's a need to increase your bet size unless conditions tell you otherwise and that you can get away with it. I just ran your game below using hi-opt2 with asc and noticed that the SCORE for your game is 108. That's pretty damn good...

I also remember a poster by the name of KJ or Ke.wlJ,ason (listen to him if he's there) recommending not to make a bet over $500 since that apparently rings the second level of threshold for a typical casino ($100 being the first).

The graph I first posted means within 4000 hands (I didn't realize that wasn't shown), you're expected to win 9k or lose 3k within 68% of the time. If you've played poker before, you should know what that means theoretically and understand it's effects in practice. I'm assuming 4000 hands since 50 hours * 80 hands/hour is 4000.

Here's an updated graph at 25 to 2x 300.

THanks so much for all of that wealth of information.

I dont go to a blackjack forum but was reading the archieve BJ message board that you can no longer posts on.

Anyways, If its not too much trouble, can you see what the result would be using the KO system instead of HIOPT2. This way I can see if my +5100 in profit is more luck than skill or if its on par with the KO system. I was trying to practice HiOpt2 and realized its definitely going to take some time.

But your probably right, the pit boss at this casino here in CA (indian resort) loves to stand behind the dealer and just watch me. I try to flat bet for the most part because he gets intimated but honestly if I get backed off its not the end of the world. It would be my first back off and that in itself is exciting. My only concern with that is if they tell venitian regarding my status which would suck because they love me over there and are constantly inviting me to BJ tournaments and free rooms.

What I read is that Indian Casinos are trying to compete with Vegas so they offer a better game (hence the late surrender). The best DD game I found in Vegas was at the palazoo DD game just like one above except without late surrender although it was S17.

So thats another thing im trying to figure out:
S17 DoubleDeck VS H17 Doubledeck with late surrender. what has better EV for the player with or without counting?

I'm guessing this is barona. I don't have the most recent CBJN and I can't think of any other cali casino that would offer ls in a DD. I know they use to offer a really good single deck game.

For a counter, late surrender is more important than s17. I'm not too sure how s17 and ls compares for a basic strat/non-counter. It's probably online at wizardofodds somewhere. If I were to guess, s17 is more important for a non-counter since surrender becomes less and less important to a ploppy and can even become hazardous.

What you're concerned about is being flyered and that you're blacklisted in some type of system like osn or griffin if that still exists. They can possibly share info with neighboring casinos, affiliates, or w/e. I don't know how the inside of this works. Just do research and browse the depths of old blackjack forums and look for pit boss/surveillance posters and what they have to say. There's info leaked here and there.

Here's KO. idk how this system ramp works, and don't know how to set this thing to have you play 2 hands only on good counts.


Here's Hilo. If I recall correctly, KO should perform similar to hilo (if anything, just very slightly inferior)

Thanks. Ill stick to KO for now. Appreciate all of the help.

Playing differently when the pit boss is watching is a sure sign that you want to hide.

Remember, you're probably being watched all the time, so having the pit boss there is mostly to see how you react. You've already had a skills check called by the time you're observably observed. The first observation is surruptitious.

Also, don't take this the wrong way, but it may be that they're tolerating your action because you failed the skills check. Are you 100% sure you're playing basic strategy correctly?

I'll stand by that assessment.

No way you spread that big at DD and dont get booted sometime in future...unless u have a very, very good act. Thats basically like a 24x spread? Even just one hand is 12x spread. I dont have experience though. Just going off of forum threads at another site. Good luck!

Isn't cborders your other account? Why do you post under 2 accounts?

Lol cborders is in no way shape or form me. This is my only acct. I do recognize the name from my posts in mttc awhile back though.

I know this thread is pretty stale, but willyc offered to send the OP indices for the unbalanced zen II if he was interested. I don't know if he was, but I play almost exclusively double deck, and I've lost my copy of the UBZII pamphlet. Can anyone shoot me UBZII indices for 2D, DDAS, H17 or point me in the right direction? Thanks!

Can anyone help with this? WillyC offered to help earlier in the thread, but I don't appear to have PM privileges yet so I can't contact him directly.

do you or does anyone you know have CV? If you do you can produce them yourself.

No, unfortunately not. I only play a few hours per year these days, so it doesn't seem worth the expense.

$20: http://bj21.com/ads/unbalanced_zen2/ad.html

Out of curiosity, if you only play a few hours/year, why are you using UBZ2 w/ indexes?

I learned UBZII many years ago when it first came out. I never played professionally, but I paid a good portion of my college tuition with that count. It's easy for me to pick it up again whenever I need to. I owned the pamphlet, but my wife pitched it during a move. I only need the 2D indices, so I'd like to avoid paying $28 bucks for a new copy. I already tried to buy the kindle version, but the tables are unreadable.