I'm a baccarat player -- not professional by any standard, just a hobbyist trying to go pro. I joined the forum today to find other Baccarat players to discuss the game with.

I caught the Baccarat bug from my cousin, last year. Since then, I've been playing off and on for about a year. Lost a lot of money in the process -- well, at least to me it's a lot haha. I don't have a problem with winning. My problem is winning big then losing even bigger.

I'm aware of and understand terms like up-and-pull, martingale, and the basic stuff. As for probability and more advance stuff, they're way over my head as I'm not smart... at all it seems =).

Right now, I'm trying to play with more self control and it seems to be working. A couple of days ago, my bank roll was $600. Today, it's sitting at a little bit over $3900.

For those familiar with the John Patrick's book on baccarat, in which he recommends setting 20% of your bankroll as your win goal, well I can do at least 40% on a daily basis. This is how I'm able to grow $600 to $3900 so quickly.

I've been on small win streaks like this one before, but always end up losing it back. Hoping this one will stick this time!

The more I play this game the more I have to UN-learn stuff like Martingale and just get back to playing with instinct and self control. Even with that said, I've been playing for only a year. If you've been playing longer, recognize my experience level, and have tips for me then I'm all ears.

Wow! Dodged a bullet in the latest baccarat session, 10 minutes ago.

Started out losing about 550. I started winning the next few hands, getting probably 400 back -- not really sure. Since the momentum was favoring me, I decided to shoot $500 on the next opportunity. Boom! Lost it.

Like the amateur I am, I chased that $500 with $1000 of my own money. Luckily I won. Had I lost that $1000, it would've put me on tilt.

I think the mistake here is NOT the $500 shot, but the $1000 chase -- just bad money management. I was willing to shoot $500 in the first place because I won $550 earlier today.

(After winning the $1000 hand on banker, I won another $100 on banker before ending the session.)

Today's starting bank: $3386
After the morning sessions: $3936
After the most recent session: $4231 (risked a lot of money to win just $295, very stupid)

OP Martingale is for noobs! You need to do triple Martingale. Every time you lose, you triple your bet instead of doubling it. That way when you finally win, you don't just win your original bet, you win more! So it's like every time you lose, you're actually just increasing your final win!

I'll try that when I feel like going on tilt! Haha!

Just finished another 32-minute session for a $658 win.

Starting bank: $4231
Ending bank: $4889

I've been playing since 9 am this morning. Although I took breaks in between, read news, and watched youtube, it's 1PM now and 4 hours is enough concentration for a day.

Time to put the adrenaline from winning toward exercise!!!

You realize that, unless someone is bankrolling you, every bet you make is your own money. Also, every bet you make has an expectation of losing money.

I'm not a baccarat player, but I'm curious about what it is you could discuss with other players. Unless you are trying some form of card counting system (which apparently isn't nearly as worthwhile as it would be in blackjack); or some form of card sorting system like Ivey used; there really doesn't seem to be much you can do except pick a bet and make it. Any other strategies that look at prior hands aren't going to be effective, because past results aren't going to be predictive of future hands.

When you say "the momentum was favoring me" you imply that somehow winning some hands make it likely that you will win the next ones. If this kind of thing worked, casinos would have gone bust years ago. I'm glad that you are currently winning. And for all I know you have hit upon a great system that is destined to make you a fortune. I just can't imagine what that could be.

@VBAces

I'd love to have some discussions on the mental aspect of the game. For example, how to stay disciplined. And, I've only played this game for a year so I don't think I should be that arrogant to claim there's nothing beyond what I know at the moment. I try to stay open minded, but admittedly it would be difficult for anyone to convince me to buy into a strategy as I'm happy playing the way I play -- it fits my personality and level of patience. (Sidenote: I've never bought a "secret" strategy before and never will.)

Like I mentioned in the original post, the more I play the more I have to un-learn "strategies" that don't work. I still remember the first Bac game I ever played, I sat down with a $100 at a $5 minimum table, knowing nothing about the game, and managed to win $50 just based on instinct alone. It's the experimental strategies and going on tilt that have cost me a lot of money. So, we're not in disagreement over the opinion that Bac has no cut-and-dry winning formula.

I'm aware the popular, no-nonsense opinion on Bac is that every hand or event happens independently. However, if you play Bac long enough, there are things you can look for that will increase your chance of winning. It's not a "formula", but I don't think I can help anyone reading this visualize how I play just by words alone. It would take very long for me to type it out. I'm happy to draw it at anyone's request.

Take the popular "bet on Banker" advice for example. At an all Player table, in which player is winning 60% to 70% of the hands, it would be foolish to bet on Banker. Although events happen independently, that's one VERY BASIC example of observing the table to increase your chance of winning.

I didn't mean to imply the next hand would be a guaranteed win. In fact, I lost the very next hand. Let me clarify. In my opinion, when you're winning at a table, whether it's Blackjack or Baccarat, I think you should play more aggressively. For all I know, my win streak or momentum at that table and particular time frame could end abruptly, but that's the risk I take to even out the aggressiveness and luck factors.

The casino counts on you losing big and winning small. And, that's typically how we all gamble really. We bet small when we're winning, fearing that we might lose, but when we do lose then it's GAME ON. You want to win back your money so much you start betting bigger and bigger.

To balance this out, I will bet bigger when I feel like the momentum is shifting my way, not just when I'm losing. If I bet bigger either way then I will be out of money eventually right? No, sometimes I'll bet big and lose and sometimes I'll bet big and win. When I win, I stop, take the money and run. That way, I at least open up the opportunity for a big win instead of always winning small and losing big.

As for card counting, I don't have the patience nor do I know how. Actually, I don't think card counting works in Bac unless they're visually marked by something like in the Phil Ivey case.

Da faq????

The strategy I like to emply is to start off betting 2 units. If I win, I bet 3. If I win that, I bet 4. If I win that I bet 5. If I win that, I go back to 4 and that is my bet for the rest of the duration. Anytime I loose, I go back to 2 units.

This method ensures proper bankroll management, tilt control, and slow + consistent profit.

Think about it, if you loose 10 hands in a row, you only loose 18 units plus whatever the first loosing bet was.

Whereas if you wiin 10 hands in a row, it'd be 2+3+4+5+(4x6) which is 38 units.

This may not optimize certain situations (eg. Momentum is 70% in favor of players), but it is very safe and balances out in the long run. Also sometimes instincts are wrong and momentum may be on the house side.

@tiger415 - I'm assuming this is how you're betting on runs, in which you're winning 4 to 5 hands on player or banker, consecutively. Please note my Bac lingo might be limited and I will often ask to get things clarified simply because I haven't been exposed to Bac forum discussions until now.

For me, I like to lock in at least some win money early in the beginning so I will typically bet: 3-1-2-3-4-5-6 and so on of units. This way, if I actually win the first hand and continue betting the run, I'm guaranteed a profit of 2 units. Whatever happens afterward is just extra money which leaves room for me to make a 6 units bet if I feel like it. Sometimes, I will bet 3-1-2-3-4-4-4 just like you would. It depends on what I believe the table is giving me.

I think how much to bet should be kept flexible just like what to bet. If it's too strict or robotic, you might expose yourself to a very big lost or frustrating series of hands that leads to playing on tilt. Betting too robotically is in my opinion is the same as using a one-sided flat betting strategy. What if the Player side go on a 20 hands run and we stubbornly flat bet on Banker because the idea makes sense in the long run you know?

Generally, I like to base everything I do in Bac on being an opportunist, not a grinder. Ironically, playing like an opportunist require much more patience as you're not involved in as many hands. I'm simply there to snipe a couple of hands then get out.

True. I've been in situations like that before and lost quite a bit. With that said, I don't think 2-3-4-5-4-4-4... is safe enough and I think you'll like 3-1-2-3-4-5 much more if you try it out.

I responded to this earlier, but I think there's a misunderstanding so here's to clear it up. I did not shoot the $500 on the very next banker hand after winning several banker hands in a row.

Winning several bank hands in a row or being on a banker run is very common, it's certainly no indicator of momentum.

I actually won several banker series that made me think momentum was swinging my way. Based on that, I shot the $500 bet on the next 2nd banker opportunity.

Is this game beatable?

'cause I always heard it is not.

Every game is "beatable", otherwise people wouldn't gamble at all. Because the nature of Bac is basically 50/50, the more you play the more you expose yourself to losing. Some people can't get over this fact so they try to outwit the 50/50 nature of the game with complicated strategies and formulas.

If you play just a few hands, win, then take the money and run, that's the best scenario/strategy. The problem is everyone that gambles is more than likely greedy so we keep playing until we lose it all back.

I think anyone can instinctively win a few hands in a row. That's really all you need to profit.

Today was slow, but more steady than yesterday.

Starting bank: $4902 (supposed to be $4889 but I won $13 very late last night)
After 1st session of 26 minutes: $5422
After 2nd session of 25 minutes: $5820
3rd session of 34 minutes: $6139
4th session of 34 minutes: $6600
5th session of 16 minutes and ending bankroll of the day: $6955

All together, I grew the bankroll by 41.8% ($2053) in roughly 4 hours -- of which only 2 hours and 15 minutes were actual play time. (The rest of the 4 hours was just Youtube, eating, bathroom breaks and reading online stuff.) Yesterday, I did 44.3% but today's total is good enough. No need to be greedy.

Here's a little proof to prove I'm not lying. https://www.dropbox.com/s/4dnuvl8sdx...ce-snippet.png

This screenshot isn't me showing off. I've been at this level before and lost everything before. But if a week or two later I post a screenshot of a five-figure balance then you'll know I'm showing off. Haha!

Good job.

I can only dream of making $500/hr or increasing my bankroll by 40% within 4 hours.

5 I call this the Magic Casino Door strategy. It's the belief that leaving when ahead and then coming back later somehow negates the law of large numbers and changes the long term expectation of the game. (Hint: your lifetime of play is one long session.)

It's kind of an oxymoron wanting to go pro in a negative expectation game. Even if it were 50/50 (it's not) you can't make a living flipping coins. But you aren't the first to confuse a few lucky sessions with a winning system.

I think the difference here is I do realize it's luck. I never said I have a winning system/formula. Read my earlier responses and posts. Most of it was about patience, self control, and money management. I also addressed balancing the luck factor by betting more aggressively when you feel momentum is on your side.

What you're neglecting is I also play with a lot of patience. Everyday, I sit through numerous un-played hands before making a bet. Patience is the difference maker in a negative expectation game.

Edit: I'd rather be lucky than good

I see some players doing the "comp" strategy- only betting and betting big when the pit boss comes over to the table.

It takes me a while to place a bet, but I'm not a "shooter." Shooters will shoot for one or two hands then leave with a big win. For me, that's not consistent enough. I usually wait, make test bets, then start making real bets.

I'm not familiar with playing for comp because the best action I can get on Bac is from a local casino and they don't comp unless it's a free drink and some fried chicken wings, but that's it.

I think how comp really works is you have to play for a while making consistent bets for an hour to get credited. If you try to be sneaky, you can get away with it once or twice, but you're still risking a bunch of your own money to get that comp. Not worth it.

I do know that if you buy in big at Reno, regardless of how much you bet, they will give you free hotel months afterward to get you to come back.

Yeah, but that is NOT the definition of beatable.

But i understand what you mean. GL!

Well I hope you still visit us this time next month when you are sitting on a cool $94,000,000. Although I wouldn't blame you if you didn't, since you'll be hard at work making $38,000,000 or more on a daily basis. I appreciate you gracing us with your presence here now, before long you'll be on the Forbes list and need not bother spending any time with us peons.

Amazing self-control. As long as you keep showing such restraint, I'm sure you'll be successful in all your endeavors.

Lol @ patience mattering. Great thread though.

Ahem unnecessary sarcasm there? It's funny you guys think I'm arrogant despite me admitting I'm an amateur that lost a lot of money.

I'm simply posting results of several days worth of play. Who knows what will happen next week.

Online Bac doesn't have the type of table limits that allow your bankroll to grow to that level. If I hit $25k, I'll start cashing out to put together an offline bankroll.

@ you thinking patience doesn't matter. Patience is important in majority of card games, especially so in Bac.