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Old 01-15-2017, 05:24 AM   #1
kingofsports
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Anti-money laundering procedures at MGM National Harbor.

The horror story I've only read about happened tonight. Guy's wife tried cashing 5 figures of chips for him and because she hadn't done the gambling, MGM tried taking ALL of their chips and confiscating them.

I find MGM to go above and beyond with this confiscating rule. PLEASE everyone, DECLINE color up requests. I don't care if the casino has to order a fill because you took all their black chips. DONT TAKE ORANGE, 5k or 25k CHIPS. DONT. Orange chips you usually won't have a problem with,but 5k or above, you are looked at like a criminal. Instead of being treated like a winner, for once you won! Right? Wrong. They will call security, they will investigate to no end.

Its bull**** it really is. I tried cashing $2000 in orange tonight and they wanted to call security to "verify play" because I refuse to have an MGM card. I said **** that, and snatched my chips. They weren't happy about it but screw them. Colored down my chips at a craps table nearby for blacks and had no problem cashing in that 2k then.

Its messed up and MGM really needs to get their **** together.

You take our money without asking questions, but when we go to get paid for taking a gamble, you give us ****. Tonight's case where you tried stealing 5 figures from a guy makes me know I will never touch your pits again. Why? Because if I win, theres a chance I lose since I refuse to get a card. What if I cash in my chips and no manager is around to verify my play? Then I guess I'm ****ed right? Oh thats totally fair to me.

Complete bull**** that a casino can take your money and then just confiscate your chips. Absurd.

Last edited by kingofsports; 01-15-2017 at 05:30 AM.
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Old 01-15-2017, 05:27 AM   #2
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Re: MGM National Harbor Resort & Casino (Oxon Hill, MD); FAQ in OP

I go to foxwoods, borgota, seminole hard rock and cash in a 5k chip, they have a manager come by, take the 5k wrapped bills to the bill counter, count it and hand me the wrap. No verification, no BS, takes all of 60 seconds. I go to MGM and cash in a 5k chip I won in a poker game, it took over 25 minutes and the floor was having issue "verifying my play". Scaring me half to death.

AVOID.

Last edited by kingofsports; 01-15-2017 at 05:40 AM.
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Old 01-15-2017, 09:39 AM   #3
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Re: MGM National Harbor Resort & Casino (Oxon Hill, MD); FAQ in OP

Quote:
Originally Posted by kingofsports View Post
You take our money without asking questions, but when we go to get paid for taking a gamble, you give us ****.
I'm guessing it has more to do with the amount of serious Federal trouble for *not* doing what you described.

I had similar issues cashing out from the pits at Bellagio and Aria. And honestly it wasnt that big a deal to wait 3-5 minutes while they verified where I played. They have - again, Federal - reporting requirements above a certain amount. And even below that amount they record it so that someone doesnt make multiple smaller cashout attempts in an effort to circumvent the reporting requirements. Or things like having your wife cash out 5 figures worth of chips for you. Not saying thats what it was but from an MGMNH perspective, they dont care.

I dont like it, I dont think anyone likes it. But this isnt Johnny or MGMNH randomly doing something to bother you.
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Old 01-15-2017, 10:06 AM   #4
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Re: MGM National Harbor Resort & Casino (Oxon Hill, MD); FAQ in OP

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Originally Posted by dcmidnight View Post
I'm guessing it has more to do with the amount of serious Federal trouble for *not* doing what you described.

I had similar issues cashing out from the pits at Bellagio and Aria. And honestly it wasnt that big a deal to wait 3-5 minutes while they verified where I played. They have - again, Federal - reporting requirements above a certain amount. And even below that amount they record it so that someone doesnt make multiple smaller cashout attempts in an effort to circumvent the reporting requirements. Or things like having your wife cash out 5 figures worth of chips for you. Not saying thats what it was but from an MGMNH perspective, they dont care.

I dont like it, I dont think anyone likes it. But this isnt Johnny or MGMNH randomly doing something to bother you.
That is where you are wrong. The federal reporting requirement is to track any transaction for 3k or more. IRS cash report for 10k or more within 24 hours. My cashout for 2k in orange chips is well below the 3k requirement, thus MGM should not have asked me to verify my play and for ID. Under 3k should be no questions. Every casino I've been to follows this policy 100% even if its $2950.
MGM though...The big chips always cause trouble. I colored the 2k down to all blacks, pissed off a craps pit boss and walked away with the 20 blacks and had no issue cashing them in.

Like I said avoid the 1k chips or above people.
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Old 01-15-2017, 10:41 AM   #5
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Re: MGM National Harbor Resort & Casino (Oxon Hill, MD); FAQ in OP

...you could just get a card?
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Old 01-15-2017, 11:00 AM   #6
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Re: MGM National Harbor Resort & Casino (Oxon Hill, MD); FAQ in OP

If I owned or operated a casino and a player refused to sign up for a card while attempting to cash out large denomination chips it would immediately raise a red flag. I see nothing wrong with MGM protecting their interests in this case as described even if below the $3k federal mandate.

Sure I understand reasons why you may not want to be identified for tax/tracking purposes or maybe you're name is black marked in casinos......they don't know which is the red flag. It's your choice to not have a card however don't expect to be treated the same as those who DO provide identification.
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Old 01-15-2017, 11:05 AM   #7
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Re: MGM National Harbor Resort & Casino (Oxon Hill, MD); FAQ in OP

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If I owned or operated a casino and a player refused to sign up for a card while attempting to cash out large denomination chips it would immediately raise a red flag. I see nothing wrong with MGM protecting their interests in this case as described even if below the $3k federal mandate.
Nor do I. The situation described with a woman cashing out "5 figures" of chips that weren't hers is the very definition of the potential money laundering situations the casino/govt is looking out for.

And while I'm well aware of the actual requirements, I've been asked for my players card while cashing in (slightly) less than $3k in pit chips in LV. It didn't even cross my mind to be irritated by it.
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Old 01-15-2017, 11:17 AM   #8
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Re: MGM National Harbor Resort & Casino (Oxon Hill, MD); FAQ in OP

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Originally Posted by DMoogle View Post
...you could just get a card?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say he doesn't want to be tracked.... lol
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Old 01-15-2017, 11:21 AM   #9
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Re: MGM National Harbor Resort & Casino (Oxon Hill, MD); FAQ in OP

Can't find the Maryland regulations, but in Nevada:
Quote:
4. A licensee shall not redeem its chips or tokens if presented by a person who the licensee knows or reasonably should know is not a patron of its gaming establishment,
and I would guess that MGM's company wide procedures are based largely on those in Nevada.
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Old 01-15-2017, 11:40 AM   #10
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Re: MGM National Harbor Resort & Casino (Oxon Hill, MD); FAQ in OP

I can't think of any legit reason why someone would be cashing out chips that they didn't win/play with. About the best is "here cash these while I go to the bathroom" but most likely it's either someone who paid chips to someone else off the tables, someone who has stolen chip or someone who is structuring a cash out to avoid reporting. All those things are illegal.

Complaining that MGM wants to verify play when cashing large chips is like complaining that a bar wants to verify drinking age with ids.
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Old 01-15-2017, 10:43 PM   #11
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Re: MGM National Harbor Resort & Casino (Oxon Hill, MD); FAQ in OP

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Originally Posted by psujohn View Post
I can't think of any legit reason why someone would be cashing out chips that they didn't win/play with. About the best is "here cash these while I go to the bathroom"
Well this was the exact scenario described in the OP. I've cashed out chips for a friend before (small denomination so no issues). Seeing as in Vegas chips are as good as cash and sometimes even play in casinos other than the ones by which they were issued, how do people cash out their high denom chips there?
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Old 01-16-2017, 12:36 PM   #12
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Re: MGM National Harbor Resort & Casino (Oxon Hill, MD); FAQ in OP

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Originally Posted by kingofsports View Post
That is where you are wrong. The federal reporting requirement is to track any transaction for 3k or more. IRS cash report for 10k or more within 24 hours. My cashout for 2k in orange chips is well below the 3k requirement, thus MGM should not have asked me to verify my play and for ID. Under 3k should be no questions. Every casino I've been to follows this policy 100% even if its $2950.
Almost every sentence is wrong.

The federal requirement for a CTR is $10k at any one time. The federal requirement (REQUIREMENT!) for an SAR is anything that appears to be an attempt at evading the CTR.

Most banks codify what they define as a requirement for SAR because it's easier on their employees, but not because of any requirement. And most will set some threshold in the $2k-$3k range, assuming they can catch anyone who tries 4-5 $2k-$3k cashes in 24 hours. There are intentionally no bright lines because that's the whole point of the SAR. Try cashing $5 one thousand times and you'll get flagged as well.

The requirement for having played to cash is likewise a casino rule, not federal law. They can set it however they want. If you walk into a casino, play one $5 hand, and then go up to the cage and try to cash $9,995, guess what happens? They know exactly what you're trying to do.

It's sweet that you think these rules are there to hassle you (versus being cynical enough to realize why they exist). And the rules are kind of stupid (the $10k CTR limit is not inflation adjusted so it makes less and less sense as time marches on). But don't be naive.
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Old 01-17-2017, 09:30 PM   #13
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Re: MGM National Harbor Resort & Casino (Oxon Hill, MD); FAQ in OP

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Originally Posted by callipygian View Post
Almost every sentence is wrong.

The federal requirement for a CTR is $10k at any one time. The federal requirement (REQUIREMENT!) for an SAR is anything that appears to be an attempt at evading the CTR.

Most banks codify what they define as a requirement for SAR because it's easier on their employees, but not because of any requirement. And most will set some threshold in the $2k-$3k range, assuming they can catch anyone who tries 4-5 $2k-$3k cashes in 24 hours. There are intentionally no bright lines because that's the whole point of the SAR. Try cashing $5 one thousand times and you'll get flagged as well.

The requirement for having played to cash is likewise a casino rule, not federal law. They can set it however they want. If you walk into a casino, play one $5 hand, and then go up to the cage and try to cash $9,995, guess what happens? They know exactly what you're trying to do.

It's sweet that you think these rules are there to hassle you (versus being cynical enough to realize why they exist). And the rules are kind of stupid (the $10k CTR limit is not inflation adjusted so it makes less and less sense as time marches on). But don't be naive.
i like how you say "almost every sentence is wrong," then you "correct" him by saying it's 10k per transaction not per 24hrs (you're wrong), ramble about SARs for a while, and then claim that "they can set it up however they want" (you're wrong there too).

you're an insufferable condescending prick and what's worse is that you're ignorant to boot. that's possibly the most unpleasant combination of personality traits i could imagine.

OP, fincen sent out memos to casinos late last year basically saying "you guys need to do a ton more self reporting" and some places have totally overreacted, and since this is a new casino they probably screwed up a couple times with procedural stuff, being new and all, and are now spazzing out on people for no practical reason. anyone who thinks that doublechecking someone's play to cash out 2k is totally normal and makes any sense at all has zero clue what they're talking about.
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Old 01-18-2017, 08:49 AM   #14
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Re: MGM National Harbor Resort & Casino (Oxon Hill, MD); FAQ in OP

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Originally Posted by DMoogle View Post
...you could just get a card?
But then he'll have to wear a tinfoil hat
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Old 01-18-2017, 01:40 PM   #15
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Re: MGM National Harbor Resort & Casino (Oxon Hill, MD); FAQ in OP

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i like how you say "almost every sentence is wrong," then you "correct" him by saying it's 10k per transaction not per 24hrs (you're wrong), ramble about SARs for a while, and then claim that "they can set it up however they want" (you're wrong there too).

you're an insufferable condescending prick and what's worse is that you're ignorant to boot. that's possibly the most unpleasant combination of personality traits i could imagine.
http://www.fdic.gov/regulations/safe...section8-1.pdf

Definition for CTR: "each currency transaction over $10,000"

Definition for SAR: "Structuring is the most common suspicious activity reported to FinCEN. Structuring is defined as breaking down a sum of currency that exceeds the $10,000 CTR reporting level per the regulation, into a series of transactions at or less than $10,000."

You're right that multiple transactions on a business day (not defined) count as a single transaction. But just like the subjective terminology in the SAR, this is meant to be a catchall to close obvious loopholes, and the PDF goes into detail about how different types of businesses can use their discretion to determine who is more suspicious and less suspicious and apply different criteria to what is considered suspicious. That is why the cashout limits are heterogeneous - the Bellagio might not think a $2k transaction is suspicious but a small poker room in the Midwest might.

Maybe if you weren't wrong so often, you wouldn't feel like I was condescending all the time.
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Old 01-18-2017, 04:27 PM   #16
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Re: Anti-money laundering procedures at MGM National Harbor.

so to summarize, you were indeed wrong when you tried to "correct" that guy and now you're rambling about SARs for some reason again. btw "a day" is defined as 24hrs. hope this helps.

https://www.ffiec.gov/bsa_aml_infoba...al/OLM_017.htm
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Old 01-18-2017, 10:45 PM   #17
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Re: Anti-money laundering procedures at MGM National Harbor.

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Originally Posted by Fubster View Post
so to summarize, you were indeed wrong when you tried to "correct" that guy and now you're rambling about SARs for some reason again. btw "a day" is defined as 24hrs. hope this helps.

https://www.ffiec.gov/bsa_aml_infoba...al/OLM_017.htm
It actually did help.

... to confirm you're gaslighting.

Let me copy and paste the first sentence of the first paragraph of your link.

"A bank must electronically file a Currency Transaction Report (CTR) for each transaction in currency ..."

Let me copy and paste the first sentence of the second paragraph of your link.

"Multiple currency transactions totaling more than $10,000 during any one business day are treated as a single transaction if the bank has knowledge they are by or on behalf of the same person."

Not surprisingly, they are nearly identical to the link I posted, more or less confirming that you have read neither.

In addition, if you don't understand why I'm "rambling" about SARs, you either haven't read OP's posts very carefully or you just don't "get" how SARs relate to casino policy. And in a condescending, prickish tone, I'll point out I specifically mean the logic gate OR, not XOR.
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Old 01-18-2017, 11:19 PM   #18
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Re: Anti-money laundering procedures at MGM National Harbor.

here's the first two sentences of the snippet of his you quoted:
Quote:
That is where you are wrong. The federal reporting requirement is to track any transaction for 3k or more. IRS cash report for 10k or more within 24 hours.
here are the first two sentences of your reply:
Quote:
Almost every sentence is wrong.

The federal requirement for a CTR is $10k at any one time.
it's very obvious what you were addressing, but due to whatever psychological disorder you have that makes you believe you're gods gift to nitpicking, you're refusing to acknowledge that you were a) wrong and b) incredibly condescending.

i'm done with this discussion because i just remembered that you've done this before. i think it was almost the exact same thing, you were being a sanctimonious ass about something you were 100% without a doubt wrong about, and then when it was pointed out you just talked in circles while scoffing at the preposterous notion that you could ever be wrong about something.

for your own sake and for the sake of those around you, please take some time for some self reflection, maybe talk to someone, and get to the root of why you behave this way.
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Old 01-19-2017, 04:54 PM   #19
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Re: Anti-money laundering procedures at MGM National Harbor.

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i'm done with this discussion because i just remembered that you've done this before. i think it was almost the exact same thing
No, you aren't done. For whatever reason - and that reason is probably that you don't understand what I'm posting - you have some giant hardon for "proving" me "wrong."

You don't get why it's a big deal that CTR rule is about per transaction rather than per time. (If you cash out below a certain limit you NEVER have to worry about CTRs because the first time you cash out, the casino would need foresight to know that you will need a CTR in the future.)

You don't get why I keep talking about SARs. (Even if you cash out below that limit, you are subject to all sorts of rules on SARs.)

You post a link which you've never read. (And just repeats the link I posted.)

Do you even realize that one of the explicit, specific reasons that a SAR needs to be filed is when someone refuses to cash out upon learning of reporting requirements? That is, the OP's misunderstandings of the "minor" points I'm "nitpicking" may have already cost him an SAR?

Meanwhile, he's going around telling people to cash out $2,950 at a time or color down to sub-1k chips on the totally ridiculous assertion that there's some federally mandated 3k bright line.

... and somehow I am the *******.

But you're right on one thing. I admit I do appear quite condescending to some people. It's almost like at some point I Googled publicly available information regarding a topic you admit comes up over and over again, and I look down on everyone who hasn't.
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Old 01-23-2017, 09:47 PM   #20
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Re: Anti-money laundering procedures at MGM National Harbor.

Reading this thread pains me being from the UK. The whole idea that the government taps you for 30% when you win GAMBLING but don't give you a cent when you lose boggles my mind. The reason all gambling is left alone in the UK is if they taxed winners all the losers would be able to claim tax relief and as we all know nearly all gamblers lose bar pro sports guys and poker players.

One of the main casinos over here has recently started to ask their big players to prove the source of their income. Nearly all casinos here are private members clubs so just walking in without ID isn't a option. Has ended up with alot of less than lawful individuals being banned and going to their competitors.
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Old 01-24-2017, 05:27 PM   #21
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Re: Anti-money laundering procedures at MGM National Harbor.

The CTRs have nothing to do with taxes. They aren't even sent to the IRS. CTRs are there so the government can track currency.

If you buy in for $1,000 and cash out $10,000, you get a CTR for $10,000. If you buy in for $9,000 and cash out for $10,000, you get a CTR for $10,000.

The US federal government DOES allow you to deduct gambling losses from gambling winnings. You add up all your winnings, report them as other income, and then add up all your losses and report them as deductions.

Some states do not allow you to deduct losses, which is the scenario you describe. But those only apply to state taxes, and most states with legal gambling allow you to deduct losses.
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Old 01-24-2017, 07:32 PM   #22
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Re: Anti-money laundering procedures at MGM National Harbor.

Not really what i meant Re the deducting losses.

I spoke to a tax expert about UK tax laws and was more or less told. If they decided to tax you on winnings say 30% on the year £100k profit you pay them £30k. If i lost £300k gambling the year after the government would owe me £90k.

Makes sense when you think about its insanely one sided to tax people playing -ev games and not offer any tax relief if you lose.

Going off topic a bit but just seems such a scam for you guys guess thats why alot of countries don't tax gambling winnings.
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Old 05-02-2017, 09:25 PM   #23
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Re: MGM National Harbor Resort & Casino (Oxon Hill, MD); FAQ in OP

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Originally Posted by Fubster View Post
you're an insufferable condescending prick and what's worse is that you're ignorant to boot. that's possibly the most unpleasant combination of personality traits i could imagine.
Let him be. Hes been like this probably forever.

Hes right on a lot of things but unfortunately hes not self aware of his condescending attitude. Maybe some sort of personality disorder
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Old 05-03-2017, 09:20 PM   #24
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Re: MGM National Harbor Resort & Casino (Oxon Hill, MD); FAQ in OP

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Originally Posted by callipygian View Post
I admit I do appear quite condescending to some people. It's almost like at some point I Googled publicly available information regarding a topic you admit comes up over and over again, and I look down on everyone who hasn't.
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Originally Posted by realestate View Post
Hes right on a lot of things but unfortunately hes not self aware of his condescending attitude. Maybe some sort of personality disorder
Or maybe I actually read something before I post, and try to avoid posting dumb **** which is not only untrue, but patently untrue.
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Old 05-06-2017, 06:30 PM   #25
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Re: Anti-money laundering procedures at MGM National Harbor.

This is a pretty standard MGM practice that they do in Vegas as well. It is due to government reporting and anti money laundering requirements but they definitely use it to combat advantage play as well.

If you don't want to play with a players card at MGM properties, never, ever take above black chips, you will not easily get cash for yellow or above without a players card. If they simply refuse to pay you, you can call gaming enforcement and they will have to pay you, however that will also lead to you being barred from MGM properties.

I don't believe cashing chips for someone else is illegal, or selling chips to someone else is illegal, unless you are doing it for the purpose of evading a CTR or for the purpose of filing a CTR under an incorrect name. But I could be wrong.
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