is top management not usually old and ugly?
it is certainly also possible that it is not attractiveness by itself that help but correlating things like health.

- we're talking about averages / expectations here. i.e. rate looks, compare mean/distribution across positions. there is definitely a solid relationship here.

- there of course can be variables that correlate. i.e. you can use education and intelligence as well as appearance to control for their impact. its almost certain there'd still be a sig impact of appearance on income/position etc. health though is only 1 aspect. i mean if you wanted to go that route, you'd break up "appearance" into the key elements of something like: facial symmetry, bmi, body fat % etc.

Barron

Well played.

Hold the presses. Barron's in mid-season form.

Welcome back!

I read several years back a study that correlated every inch in height in a male to an additional $500/yr in income. These are just averages though.

This thread is getting derailed by two side topics:

The discussion of personal characteristics affecting success.
They do, but not to the magnitude of being highly successful vs. merely successful. Even if consensus was achieved it really makes no difference because it's not something you can change.

The affect of intelligence on success.
This is difficult for people to understand, but there is no correlation between intelligence and wealth. To those that argue "Yeah, but smart people can't be lawyers or Doctors etc", you are correct in that narrow argument, but you're missing the big picture. I knew this fact a long time ago, but a quick google search reveals these links:

http://www.news.com.au/intelligence-...-1111113408539
http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/intlwlth.htm

It's an interesting debate if we consider someone coming from nothing and making $50k/year vs. a person brought up in a wealthy household taking over Dad's business making $2.5million per year. But these debates become academic and highly contested (perhaps that was the point of this thread).

From the first link:

"The average income difference between a person with an IQ score in the normal range (100) and someone in the top 2 per cent of society (130) is currently between $US6000 ($7200) and $US18,500 ($22,250) per year," it said.

"But when it came to total wealth and the likelihood of financial difficulties, people of below average and average intelligence did just fine when compared to the super-intelligent."

----

what this is saying is that the smartest do in fact make significantly more money than average IQ people. even still, they get themselves into financial difficulty just as much as average IQ people.

more i think about it, just making good personal finance decisions is extremely important to achieving true financial freedom. if you're a ****ing baller pulling in 7 figures+, fine, go out and blow $250k per year on dumb ****. just live within your means, with few exceptions, no matter how much money you make, terrible financial decisions can ruin you.

Not spending money is often times just as difficult as making money.


Preserving capital for future opportunities is a skill.

There was a study that came out six or seven years ago about how people in the $100-140k family income range were actually worse off financially then people making three-quarters of their income. This was because of the spending decisions that they made. I didn't read the study just a summery but it seemed that once you got over $100k the percentage of people that overextend themselves goes up dramatically.

In a way it makes sense given that income is less stratified than socio-economic class so moving from the top of one class to the bottom of the next creates a pressure to overspend.

What would you guys prefer?

To make 80k when everyone else is making 90k, or make 70k when everyone else is making 60k.

70k

lol, ty. ;-).

Barron

On a scale of 1-10 how serious are you? And how serious is your response to the question I just asked?

His answer is completely serious and completely obvious if you understand the the importance of status to happiness.

It is a serious answer but it has nothing to do with status. You have more buying power with $70k in a country where everyone else makes $60k than you do with $80k in a country where everyone makes $90k. Absolute numbers are meaningless when it comes to money -- what matters is what you can exchange the funds for.

So...let me get this straight. If I changed the numbers a bit - as long as you are making more than other people around you thats all that matters?

Lets say you make 10k while everyone else makes 8.5k. You would rather have that then you making 80k and everyone else 90k?

$1 has equivalent buying power in both situations...

There's an extreme where it breaks down, but yeah, for the most part the reason people strive for greater and greater wealth is because of status rather than the need for more stuff.

Absurd.

You think attractiveness is a strong reason to hire someone over work experience, education, communication skills?

0 unattractive upper management? Is this a joke?

Where do you work? At my work, there is a process for hiring people, including detailed notes and reasons given by each manager who interviews the candidate, which is then discussed in a group afterwards.

Your opinion is the exact opposite of my original opinion, which has been pointed out to me is incorrect, which I agree.


Please.

And why does this guy get a pass? I say/paste the same idea/links he does, and I get crucified. He says it and all of a sudden its a debate. (shakes head)

Because he is right and anyone who has had a corporate job knows it.

Like I said before, I've had corporate jobs, all in HUGE financial companies. Your statement above is not exactly cut and dried. Its not readily apparent. I don't look at management and say "Damn, they are all good looking people".

I've had managers who led over 30 people who had a club foot and a missing tooth. His boss weighed over 260 lbs. Both were capable, intelligent, strong leaders. They deserved their jobs, and anyone who worked under them all knew they qualified and capable, and they themselves would have trouble outperforming those two. Their looks had nothing to do with it. One made approx 150k, his boss made easily in the 300s.

I currently work with a female manager who's looks could stop a clock. Another director of her level is over 300 lbs, and sloppy looking. Both are extremely good leaders. Both make tons of money. One is a millionaire (he was here from the beginning I think).

I'm starting to wonder where you guys worked. I'm not kidding.

The real question is would you rather (a) make 100k when everyone you know makes 120k or (b) make 80k when everyone you know makes 60k.


Happiness: When your wife's brother-in-law makes 30% less than you do.

He said it has a definite impact. Decisions are made on the margin correct?

keep the insults and hilarity coming lolz.

1. Umberson & Hughes (1987). The impact of attractiveness on achievement and psychological well being.

2. *
Physical Attractiveness, Opportunity, and Success in Everyday Exchange
* Matthew Mulford, John Orbell, Catherine Shatto and Jean Stockard
* The American Journal of Sociology, Vol. 103, No. 6 (May, 1998), pp. 1565-1592
* Published by: The University of Chicago Press

3. *
Applicant Attractiveness as a Perceived Job-Relevant Variable in Selection of Management Trainees
* Terry A. Beehr and David C. Gilmore
* The Academy of Management Journal, Vol. 25, No. 3 (Sep., 1982), pp. 607-617
* Published by: Academy of Management

those were just the first 3 there lol (search conducted in like 2 mins). tons more studies done obv.

i am not stating unequivically that there are no outliers. just IN GENERAL, attractiveness and position/income etc. are correlated in a statistically significant fashion.

your sample of N=1 is hilarious. of course there are going to be INDUSTRIES where this isn't true (i'd imagine construction, cable tv repair lolz etc.), but in white collar corporate america, it is on the whole.

Barron

LLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLL

[ ] wil318466 has logical reasoning/reading comprehension skillz.

Barron

Based on your posts in this thread I think it is safe to disqualify any business that you worked at.

No. No one is saying everyone is a super model but what you do notice is that everyone is above average. I was on Stikeman's website after this conversation so just for fun I clicked on about twenty profiles -- not one person was unattractive. Do you have any idea what the probability of picking twenty random people from society as a whole and not getting one ugly person is?