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Value Investing and Longer Term Investing Value Investing and Longer Term Investing

02-11-2016 , 11:52 PM
Gotcha, just looked at it. It's illiquid as hell, 9,000 shares traded daily.

Also, this is a pretty small company ($200mm market cap) with barely any top line growth. Hope this isn't one of your biggest holdings.
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02-12-2016 , 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by rafiki
What are you doing with them right now?
I don't own equities. I have toyed with creating a synthetic portfolio with options. But honestly, for like a back the truck up and build a portfolio approach I have never liked the prices. I didn't get into trading until the middle / end of this bull run.

If, as Wealth$ says, we get a good sell off this coming year or two I do plan to establish a position in most of those companies (easier said than done for the ones that don't trade on a domestic exchange). I like the idea of owning good companies...when the time / price is right.


Interestingly, I have felt the complete opposite about PMs. Gold and silver may just be coming out of a multi year bear. Currently they appear negatively correlated with equities. And there are reasons why an atmosphere of rate hiking can be bullish for gold.

also, I forgot AAPL in that list, it certainly deserves to be there IMO

Last edited by rand; 02-12-2016 at 10:54 AM.
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02-12-2016 , 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Malachii
Yes indeed. I just couldn't help myself from buying shares once it got under $8 and have been adding to my position. The good news is I have a relatively good average price on my position - $9.93. Which still sucks, but it could be way worse. The bad news is my position is way too big, lol. I keep thinking it can't possibly get any cheaper given their balance sheet and potential earnings power once things eventually get better, and the market action keeps proving me wrong.

I'd like to see them buy back some shares and / or debt. They could certainly afford to do it with $300 million in cash and another $300 million in borrowing capability on their revolver. But I can understand if they don't want to - a CEO's first duty is to protect the future earnings stream of the business, and everything else should be secondary to that. So I can understand wanting to be ultra conservative with cash.

But yeah, this sucks. I had an unbelievable 2013, 2014, and a great start to 2015, and then I lost a ****load of money on this oil bust. It's been kind of a perfect storm, with US shale being way more resilient than anyone initially expected, the deal with Iran, and China going to hell in a hand basket, but in retrospect there was no reason to rush into a situation like this. But hey, you live and you learn, I guess.
well be happy yr in the single digits lol. I got just under $11 after cost averaging down after it went below 7.
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02-12-2016 , 03:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malachii
Yes indeed. I just couldn't help myself from buying shares once it got under $8 and have been adding to my position. The good news is I have a relatively good average price on my position - $9.93. Which still sucks, but it could be way worse. The bad news is my position is way too big, lol. I keep thinking it can't possibly get any cheaper given their balance sheet and potential earnings power once things eventually get better, and the market action keeps proving me wrong.

I'd like to see them buy back some shares and / or debt. They could certainly afford to do it with $300 million in cash and another $300 million in borrowing capability on their revolver. But I can understand if they don't want to - a CEO's first duty is to protect the future earnings stream of the business, and everything else should be secondary to that. So I can understand wanting to be ultra conservative with cash.

But yeah, this sucks. I had an unbelievable 2013, 2014, and a great start to 2015, and then I lost a ****load of money on this oil bust. It's been kind of a perfect storm, with US shale being way more resilient than anyone initially expected, the deal with Iran, and China going to hell in a hand basket, but in retrospect there was no reason to rush into a situation like this. But hey, you live and you learn, I guess.

Earnings report next week should be interesting. HOS has been getting killed , and even today when Energy is up -- HOS is down another 1-2%.

I wanna average down and buy some more shares, but just can bring myself to pull the trigger.
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02-12-2016 , 03:50 PM
The HOS 2017 bonds are trading at a premium while their 2020 bonds are trading at 50c on the dollar.
Instead of calling the 2020 bonds maybe they should just buy them off the secondary and retire them. They have enough cash to cover the 2017 and buy a good number of the 2020 bonds off the secondary.

The valuation is idiotic. They can definitely liquidate for more.
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02-12-2016 , 03:55 PM
they still have capex obligations for some of that cash
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02-12-2016 , 04:32 PM
On the plus side, their CEO, COO, and CFO bought a combined 62k shares in January, so at least we're not the only ones betting on an eventual recovery.
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02-12-2016 , 04:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rand
I'll make a list for your approach to value investing. In a particular order:

1. GOOG

2. TSLA

3. AMZN

4. BIDU

5. MSFT

6. FB

7. INTEL

8. IBM

9. GE

10. TM (very interesting chart, this is Toyota)

11. 5930:KS (Samsung)

12. MRK

13. SCTY

14. GILD

15. BABA

16. AMGM

17. MMM

18. BA

19. Siemens Ag (Aktiengesellschaft)

20. Sap Ag

21. EA

22. CHL (no Brian, not Chiles, China Mobile Limited)

23. SNDK

24. AMD

25. QCOM

Now if you are a super nerd you can weed things out with multiples and such. But that is a start. In the abstract value investing sense I really like the top three companies.

IBM is yuck. Put a SAAS company in there instead - WDAY or CRM.

CELG>GILD

The reason why GILD is so cheap is because they only have 1 drug they rely heavily on, their Hep C drug and have nothing exciting in the pipeline.

Put some more retail in there - UA, WFM, DNKN, FL (maybe 2 of these 4 but UA is a must IMO).

I really like LNKD too
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02-13-2016 , 03:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by VanceAce
Earnings report next week should be interesting. HOS has been getting killed , and even today when Energy is up -- HOS is down another 1-2%.

I wanna average down and buy some more shares, but just can bring myself to pull the trigger.
TDW was up 22% when they reported earnings, but it sold off pretty sharply in the following days. I think there's a decent chance HOS might do something similar, so I might look to sell a rally and then buy back in to lower my cost basis. Just be careful with wash sale rules.
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02-13-2016 , 09:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wealth$

CELG>GILD

The reason why GILD is so cheap is because they only have 1 drug they rely heavily on, their Hep C drug and have nothing exciting in the pipeline.
lol

celg sales 9.2B

gild HIV sales 11B

gild HCV sales
Spoiler:
19B
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02-13-2016 , 10:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rand
I'll make a list for your approach to value investing. In a particular order:

1. GOOG, fine by me

2. TSLA, too unpredictable, crazy high multiples today, perhaps in the future it will normalize, but we can't now

3. AMZN, ditto as tesla

4. BIDU, fine by me

5. MSFT, fine by me

6. FB, high evaluation, but it's more concrete, i like it

7. INTEL, no idea, too unpredictable the future of this segment

8. IBM, ditto as intc, but perhaps they are more skewed towards strong AI, so i like it more

9. GE, no idea

10. TM (very interesting chart, this is Toyota), this is bad, i don't know why do you like the chart, but sales in car peaked last year, you should look at BMW or daimler if you think there is value in automotive, I don't know why you like Toyota.

11. 5930:KS (Samsung), no idea, but perhaps is a good buy

12. MRK, too high for me

13. SCTY, this is really bad, with oil so low, for years to come, all this things in this industry are going to be dead

14. GILD, i'm overweight on this, perhaps the only real value name in this list

15. BABA, fine by me at this price

16. AMGM, if you meant amgN, i'm with you

17. MMM, no idea

18. BA, no idea but technically if supports don't hold, there is a lot of downside

19. Siemens Ag (Aktiengesellschaft), no idea

20. Sap Ag, no idea

21. EA, no idea

22. CHL (no Brian, not Chiles, China Mobile Limited), no idea

23. SNDK, no for me, i'd take instaed WDC or MU, sndk is pricing that the M&A will go trhough and i do not think there is alpha here, too risk for me, i'd pass.

24. AMD, laggard for life, i mean, dell is not the next aapl, amd is not going to regain its prestige any time soon.

25. QCOM fine by me
real value imo at the current prices: WMT, AAPL,

i like EEP, KMI, tho it's too early/risky to buy it now. i'm watching JBLU, CSIQ, SCHW, TARO, TTM, BIIB
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02-13-2016 , 11:09 AM
Ive discussed buying back debt with the Hornbeck CFO, hes aware of his options
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02-13-2016 , 02:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wealth$
IBM is yuck. Put a SAAS company in there instead - WDAY or CRM.

CELG>GILD

The reason why GILD is so cheap is because they only have 1 drug they rely heavily on, their Hep C drug and have nothing exciting in the pipeline.

Put some more retail in there - UA, WFM, DNKN, FL (maybe 2 of these 4 but UA is a must IMO).

I really like LNKD too
IDK much about IBMs business other than they have their hands in lots of different projects / tech assets. Which makes me think they have value as a long shot (spray and pray).

You are right to say CRM and I have never heard of WDAY.

I am also rather ignorant on biotechs but just knew there should be some exposure.

But retail? No ty. Just because its a sector doesn't mean you have to have exposure. You want exposure to upside not just diversification. I'll take AMZN over most of retail. Screw Dunkin and FL their models and products are the past.

UA / fine, w.e. CMG > WFM IMO (post ecoli mess).

And LNKD, meh. FB if you want social media. My capital is scarce. I'd rather buy gold and silver than own LNKD and FB. And sadly, it looks like you have to own FB.

Last edited by rand; 02-13-2016 at 02:34 PM.
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02-13-2016 , 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by xplosiVxx
real value imo at the current prices: WMT, AAPL,

i like EEP, KMI, tho it's too early/risky to buy it now. i'm watching JBLU, CSIQ, SCHW, TARO, TTM, BIIB
Maybe, but not for me. I think WMT is over. I don't think AAPL is but I can see why some people such as Wealth$ do.

I was sticking mostly to bluechips for that list. I know a fair amount about the airline industry and wouldn't touch a carrier company with a 10 ft pool. Hardware manufacturers area another story though (I'd bet money Elon Musk releases a white paper on the electric jet front).

CISCO fine. I will never own any of the big banks. Ever. They are toxic and terrible, and immoral, and the list goes on (ha though I do use OXE that is owned by SCHW).

I think TTM has a good business model and will be legit at the right price. BIIB is solid at the right price as well, but outside my area of expertise.
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02-13-2016 , 04:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rand
IDK much about IBMs business other than they have their hands in lots of different projects / tech assets. Which makes me think they have value as a long shot (spray and pray).

You are right to say CRM and I have never heard of WDAY.

I am also rather ignorant on biotechs but just knew there should be some exposure.

But retail? No ty. Just because its a sector doesn't mean you have to have exposure. You want exposure to upside not just diversification. I'll take AMZN over most of retail. Screw Dunkin and FL their models and products are the past.

UA / fine, w.e. CMG > WFM IMO (post ecoli mess).

And LNKD, meh. FB if you want social media. My capital is scarce. I'd rather buy gold and silver than own LNKD and FB. And sadly, it looks like you have to own FB.

FL owns a lot of different businesses. They have their hand in ecommerce, they own eastbay.com, which is my go to site for sports gear. I like but def like UA the best. I like CMG too but like WFM better
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02-13-2016 , 05:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wealth$
FL owns a lot of different businesses. They have their hand in ecommerce, they own eastbay.com, which is my go to site for sports gear. I like but def like UA the best. I like CMG too but like WFM better
You are right, I forgot about EastBay. IDK, still kinda meh, I'm just not excited by any of their models.

I think WFM is pricey and will experience a lot of competition from smaller organic chains and independents.

I think food distribution networks, in a general sense, a la the web, will move to a more distributed / decentralized approach over the long run w/ shipping costs + consumer preferences yielding a more farm - table approach. The economies of scale to be had from centralizing and consolidating seem to mostly have run their course.

For the big boys there are now reverse economies of scale when it comes to legal and product quality.

But who knows, maybe the world is going to look more like BladeRunner than I think.
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02-14-2016 , 05:55 AM
here is something to make you bullish on CRM: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heroku
they acquired Heroku in Dec of 2010.
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02-16-2016 , 11:00 PM
you really gotta wonder with buffet buying stake in KMI and tepper buying a bunch of oil if now is a good time to stick a toe into the oil markets. fundamentals are telling me no, but its getting mighty enticing.
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02-17-2016 , 08:20 AM
Most of Teppers buys are natural gas. Oil market differs in a lot of ways from nat gas market.

Imo, Nat gas (in the US im talking about) has much larger natural decline rates (so shorter cycles). More than half of production is unconventional with 40-50% decline rates the first year.

Demand looks much rosier in the next 5 years than oil and it seems to be priced relatively lower than oil (since even low cost producers are not making a profit, unlike oil).

Nice thing about buying a basket of nat gas stocks now is that if one fails, that means enough production will be taken of the market that the others will do fine. The portfolio seems to sort of hedge itself. And he is probably banking on the price gap between henry hub and marcellus to close with new take away capacity coming online.
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02-17-2016 , 08:29 AM
actually thats a bit backwards where the best oil plays at $30 dont really make money but the best gas plays at 2$ do. Gas has been living down here a lot longer than oil.

Only 3 plays worth considering in gas is Marcellus, Utica and Montney. They all continue to grow at 2$
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02-17-2016 , 08:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahnuld
actually thats a bit backwards where the best oil plays at $30 dont really make money but the best gas plays at 2$ do. Gas has been living down here a lot longer than oil.

Only 3 plays worth considering in gas is Marcellus, Utica and Montney. They all continue to grow at 2$
Who do you like to take advantage of the Montney play Ahnuld? I know Seven Generations Energy has the most active wells right now if I'm not mistaken? Is there someone else I should look up?
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02-17-2016 , 10:21 AM
Have you guys looked into some of the second tier airlines ? I have been looking over SAVE (46) and VA (29) and think they are well positioned to grow from here (especially save ) . opinions ?
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02-17-2016 , 10:27 AM
I'd love to get some opinions on AT&T. Strong dividend history with a low beta. Seems like a pretty safe long term bet to me.
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02-17-2016 , 02:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MyrnaFTW
Have you guys looked into some of the second tier airlines ? I have been looking over SAVE (46) and VA (29) and think they are well positioned to grow from here (especially save ) . opinions ?
I'm long SAVE too and love it. Stock is amazingly cheap relative to its long term growth potential, when you think about how many lower middle class people there are in America who are extremely price sensitive and have never had an airline designed specifically to cater to them.

Whitney Tilson (hedge fund guy) has written some good stuff on SAVE. If you google "Whitney Tilson Spirit Airlines", there's lots of good information out there on Seeking Alpha and Valuewalk.
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02-17-2016 , 05:28 PM
Excellent write up on FCAU, RACE, and EXO

http://www.gwinvestors.com/wp-conten...t-is-Right.pdf
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