LOL, that must have been a long time ago. I'm pretty sure Bill Chen and Jerrod Ankenman still work and teach poker there so they've made some advances.

i'm surprised jeans got tossed in the intern group, my guess is SIG is so heavy into quant/coding/HFT that having the poker sickness is not as valuable

So I quit my job about a month ago, have been vacationing/pokering across the country a bit. Gonna do WSOP the next 3 weeks.

Anyways, i'm at a cross roads, I quit my job and have been playing poker but have been offered two new jobs, one is in corporate finance with an offer of 80K with bonuses etc. and I think that's pretty much it for salary cap, maybe 3% raises YoY. Sitting in a cube. Maybe I move into management or something after a while but you get the idea.

The other is trading for a proprietary firm, they're offering me a better split than most but it involves me moving to NYC, selling my home in Colorado, and taking my chances in an industry where the success rate is less than 50% easily. Would be trading the firm capital but there is no salary. Success rate is low. I've researched it thoroughly and put my chances of success at 30-40%. I hate sitting in a cube. I love trading. What do I do? At what point is "doing what you love" just a terrible idea and taking a reasonably comfortable corporate finance job the right choice? It's clear to me that this is the best potential trading job i'm going to be offered.

The benefit is they'll let me study/take the 57 from home (doesn't sound terribly difficult) and said I can start when i'm ready. Will give me remote training sessions, and access to their software. I threw out "November" as a start date and they said that would be fine.

I know most of you don't know me, a few of you do but nobody really gets where I'm at in life as much as many of you in this forum. I am 28, no kids, girlfriend who works remote and can work from anywhere. If I take this trading job, I think my potential to working at the 80k level in finance is severely diminished, this was a pretty good offer and i'd likely be looking at 55-60k if I have to start again.

I have approx. 90k in savings to help me subside as well as tenuous girlfriend income. Much of this is in illiquid volatile microcap stocks. Family's input is just not helping, nobody seems to think this is a wise idea when I have such a "good" job sitting in a cubicle as an offer. I really do have to decide here though. I know I said I wouldn't bump this thread again, but those of you who know me either indirectly or personally, would greatly appreciate input.

Couple thoughts:

1.) Life is short and you should do what you want to do. Sitting in a cubicle, making a steady income, but living a boring, sedentary life and wishing you were doing something else is not a good way to go through life. So, I would definitely recommend you not go that route. The only way this would be justified is if you'd be learning a skill-set that would allow you to be self-employed within three years or you legitimately enjoy the work, otherwise it's a no go.

2.) Rather than an either/or, is there some kind of middle route you could take? For example, is there any type of consulting or freelance work you could do on a part time basis that would give you enough fee income to reliably pay your bills? If you're smart and have a specialized skill set, it's pretty easy to find clients who you can bill for a good hourly rate, and being self-employed gives you lots of free time to pursue your other interests. It's a great lifestyle too.

I just don't necessarily see your situation as being a case of either having to take a job that you know you won't enjoy, or taking a massive risk by moving to New York and working for a prop firm. There are lots of other options if you're creative, and I'm not sure what a prop firm gives you that you can't get working from home using IB. If you need leverage, trade options.

Smokey, how good are you at poker?

What city do you want to live in?

FWIW, if I were you I would want to have lived in NYC for at least a couple of years (it is this eara's Rome or Paris).

I would also say that you should get a degree or a job in computer science.

Finance, like many industries, is only going to continue to be automated...

I would definitely not take the cubicle job. But that is just me.

Familiar w/ this book: https://www.amazon.com/4-Hour-Workwe...hour+work+week?

Other than the computer science part, horrible advice here. If you want a future stable career, marriage and family, then take the corporate job ainec. If prop trading doesn't work out, you'll look like a unfocused/misdirected loser in your future interviews. And who said you can't do both? You can trade before work, or even during work, depending on how much privacy and workload you have.

I am bored, so I will reply.

1. You must obviously hate NYC?

2. Smokey basically presented a binary choice and my advise is horrible because I didn't choose the same one that you did?

Or, there is the outside chance that you were mostly referring to Malachii.

What exactly is corporate finance job? Are you an analyst? An accountant? With such a vague-sounding job title, it sounds like a fancy title for being a paper-pusher. Honestly, it seems like you luckboxed your way into an 80k-a year, variance-free, cushy desk job that someone with a high school diploma could probably do just as well as you.

On top of that, you can still play poker in the evenings, which are the most optimal hours to play anyway. As others have mentioned, you can definitely find time to get some trading in, as desk jobs often require no more than 20-25 hours of work a week, at a slow-as-molasses pace.

I laugh at people "complaining" about their boring corporate job. These people seriously have no idea how easy they have it. If you can find time to trade part-time, play live 2-5 or 1-3 part-time, and be a pleasant person to work with at your office, you can easily clear around 150k a year. You can literally get paid to sit at your desk and research the markets, when all of the rest of your lazy employees are gossiping around the water cooler or browsing facebook.

If you hate your job that much, you can quit when you have a 300k bankroll or so. You are already around 90k, so you're not that far off.

Once you have 300k, it shouldn't be that hard for you to become a full-time investor, especially if you can play poker and trade for additional income.

But if you take advantage of the easy lifestyle an 80k desk-job provides you, you probably won't even want to quit.

This is my 2-cents coming from a self-employed guy. I love being self-employed but I have to work my ass off to find new opportunities to make $ and have my capital work for me. It's not cushy at all man and if I were in your shoes I would snap take the deal. Investing and trading becomes so much easier when you have consistent income to rely on.

I don't think I can trade from work. I can swing trade and log in to a trading accout, but I can't spend my time monitoring level 2 quotes and price action volume at this job. I can "invest" I can't trade if I do this. My skillset is poker, i'll follow up on this in the next reply.

I'm pretty good at poker. I have a huge edge in PLO8/B games, and a decent edge in PLO games. I consistently make more money hourly playing these games than I do working. I have no interest in making this a career, I think it's a dying industry and it's not what I want to spend my life doing. I'm good, i'm not the best. This isn't scalable for me. I have huge edge at 2/5/-5/5, i'm competitive at 5/10, and i'm an underdog at stakes higher than this.

I kinda feel like in my gut you're right here. I don't want "marriage and a family, I could care less about that. My MAIN GOAL in life is to not work until i'm 69.5 or whatever. I want to enjoy moderate modern comforts and retire as early as I can. That's pretty much it. Don't need to be mr. wealthy man. But I don't wanna be living in a trailer park man either.

I can't do both. It's not going to work with this job. I can and will swing trade/invest, but this job will not afford me the ability have multiple screens with streaming live stock information available to me while i'm working.

You seem a little angry man, but I don't mind spelling it out for you. I'll work as a Senior Medical Underwriter for a major medical carrier. Not sure how I "luckboxed" my way into this, I have a finance degree and have worked my way towards this type of job for 5 years now.

Why would you laugh at people complaining about their situation? I want to be happy and i'm here for advice. Just assume i'm a rational, logical person and try to make sound decisions in every aspect of my life, assuming a non zero rate of failure, for sure.

I have time to "trade part time" which is what i'm already doing. And I enjoy it. I have the opportunity to do this full time at the opportunity cost of substantial financial security, and that's why I'm here seeking advice. I'm not sure how i'm gonna "easily clear" 150k a year, if i'm missing something I don't mean to antagonize you, educate me, cause I sure would love to do that. My hourly rate at Omaha is pretty high, and i'm not even close to closing in on that annual income.

Ever? I said "future".

Move to NYC and do what if doesn't work out? Beggar or street performer? You know how expensive NY is? If you want to live in NY, get a full-time salaried job. And see if they'll throw in moving costs.

I was talking to both of you, and already explained why your advice is horrible.

The real dying industry is the point and click prop trader, not poker. Unless you want to grind on coding, the prospects of having a fruitful career in prop are grim at best.

There is no absolutely no reason to join a prop firm anymore. Think about it. What value are they giving you? It's a terrible deal. They aren't even paying you to work.

I would get an easy non-think corporate job to pay the bills. Use on the clock hours to research and trade and develop automated systems. Trade your ideas on your own capital. Once you can prove consistent success go out and raise money.

Another alternative (just thought of this): more and more prop firms are moving to the "cloud quant" structure where you can basically licence your IP out to them. They trade the strategy and give you a cut.

Quantopian is an example, so is cloud quant and WorldQuant.

The path forward in trading is relatively clear. Learn how to code. You can automate the trading workflow, have the option to license out your strategies and tech, and if trading fails have a great skill that you can use in pretty much any other industry. Micro SaaS etc.

I'm really not seeing why you want to point and click so bad? You can swing a big line and get the rush we all live for in trading without wasting 10 hours a day staring at lights. Code instead. Play some poker. Have some fun.

So the guy is 28 years old with basically no commitments, and he's serious enough about trading that he's considering moving to New York and taking a wild gamble at a prop firm (which, if it doesn't work out, could ruin him financially), and you consider the advice of "Stay where you're at, find a way to generate enough fee based income to pay your bills but where you still have enough time to pursue trading as a full time activity" to be horrible advice? Basically, my advice lessens the financial risk significantly while still giving him the opportunity to pursue trading to see if he can make it work.

Spending your life doing something you don't want to do just for the money is a recipe for a nasty midlife crisis. Obviously, if you have a family to support then you should man up and do what you need to do, but he has the luxury of not being in that position. He's young and trying to figure out what he wants to do.

Your advice is essentially "be realistic, and don't pursue what what you actually want to do", which, respectfully, is horrible advice for a person in his position. It's not a particularly good recipe for a fulfilling or interesting life either.

I asked you about poker because if you are good enough, maybe you could support yourself while studying CS and do some light trading on your own account.

It sounds like you probably are good enough. I would definitely NOT suggest this as a long term career for anyone. Even if you are making $$ hand over fist I would say get yours and get out.

Ah, see therein lies the problem. My possibly ambiguous communication and your assumptions.

You read my post to have implicit logical "ands" between lines. That wasn't how I meant it. I was basically just saying: these are the things that would be important to me, that I would value, etc.

To be more concrete I will tell Smokey exactly what I would do. And for the record, it is pretty much what I am doing.

Smokey, I would find the best combination of poker & graduate CS program that you can. So this means basically pick the right city.

I would focus on school and play pretty much only as often as I needed to. I would re-asses the career situation after graduating.

If you really want to trade graduate work in computer science and or math will go a long way towards both your skills and your ability to get hired.

The CS will also make a lot of entrepreneurial things possible if you like that.

And of course, you can always look into consulting or the box finance job after graduating.

He's emotional. I'm 27 fwiw and went through exactly what he's going though.

It's more about the tradeoff he's considering. 80k salary w/ no major life changes and minor stress, or 0k salary with a major life change and major stress. And given the state of the non-automated prop trading and the alternatives he has (e.g. swing trading), it's pretty obvious what's the right decision.

You talk about midlife crisis. What happens when he fails in a few years and basically has a career gap? Sure, he'll still get hired, but not at 100k where he'd likely be near if he continues, not to mention foregone salary.

Not sure if you're trolling me or what? This is like the 3rd time you've done this. I mean it's important enough for you to respond, but only as a sarcastic remark? Ok :\

I feel like this is right where i'm at. I have no liabilities (mortgage, value positive I can just sell). I DO NOT CARE about traditional whatevers, like grim seems to think I really need. I don't care. If it happens, super that's great. That's not something that I want to prepare or predict for. Family or any kind or binding responsibilities are extremely prohibitive to me, and for the foreseeable future i'd love to keep life this way. Hey Grim maybe you're right man, maybe I want 5 babies and a wife soon. But I don't right now, and I don't think I will. And that's all I can do right? Predict, in the present, what i'll want in the future.

Anyway, I have plenty of savings to survive i'm not going to be living on the streets and I am confident in my poker abilities to maintain a livable albeit not luxurious life for the foreseeable future.

I LOVE TRADING. I ****ING LOVE IT. And I hate cubicle life, I hate water cooler bull****, I want to crush people, and compete, and be challenged, and all that. And this seems perfect for that. The predicament is that I KNOW this is a good paying job considering I only have a bachelors degree, and they're giving me a lot of freedom and choice in this company. This is a good company, i'm going to have upper middle class financial security here. My level of enjoyment at this I give at 6/10. It's alright. I make financial decisions. I get asked for advice. I mean life could be worse, I get it. I get it. But I have a prop firm very interested in me, I have a proven (pretty weak) profitable record of trading on my own already, and it FASCINATES me, it's not a job for me, I love it. I do it when I get home. in my off time. The head trader is telling me i'll likely make money, but I don't know if that's him selling it to me cause they get a huge split of my money.

I'm not going back to school man. I'm just not.

Ok, now I know I've spent too much time in this thread. Gl

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk

Dude, you are a luckbox. Take the job. Enjoy being a luckbox. Most people in the corporate world are doing just that.

How do I know you're a luck box? You basically quit your job on a whim and decided to party and move around be directionless, just because you can beat degenerates in low stakes gambling.

You say you LOVE to trade, and are clueless to the fact that you could easily take a stable monkey-job AND STILL TRADE. Did you know that there are markets that allow you to trade 24-7 around-the-clock? Doesn't have to be during 9-5.

As others have alluded to, you're not that smart man. Beating degens in low stakes PLO does not make you that intelligent. You should snap up the opportunity for an employer to throw you 80K to do underwriting (zzzomg data entry in a spreadsheet, gotta pay 50k for a finance degree to learn that).

Once you have the stable income, you can learn other skills to transfer into working for yourself. It won't be easy, because most people with full time jobs get fat, destitute, arrogant, and lazy. But, if you are as dedicated as you say then you can make it happen.

If I sound mad, it's because it baffles me how f*cking good your situation is, and you are literally about to f*ck it up due to total stupidity. Just the typical millennial who expects life to be a f*cking perfect utopia instead of recognizing how good of a situation and opportunity you have at your finger tips.

check low beta/high beta anomaly - ASAP

Really not gonna spend much energy arguing with you buddy, but I did not "quit my job to party and become directionless". I've had these job opportunities in the works for some time now, and decided to take a couple months to enjoy myself and get away from the corporate grind.

And what's with the bolded? I'm not in here bragging, and you clearly know lots about pricing national level accounts in medical underwriting.

Think I get your position on what I should do. Thanks for the tips.

Googled a couple things and not sure what you're alluding to, my average is beta is like .25

high-beta stocks underperform low-beta stocks on a risk-adjusted basis?

I'm specifically in these low beta micro cap stocks for the increased risk/return and low beta correlation to market.

correct answer

Yeah, I get your argument in terms of what happens if it doesn't work. On the other hand, if it does work out for him his life will be massively improved over the best case scenario taking the path that you suggest, and if it doesn't work out then at least he'll have gone for it. Plus, sometimes being aggressive in life and going for things leads to other opportunities that you would never have been exposed to if you didn't go for it in the first place.

I think people fall into the trap of trying to plan things out in advance too much. In reality, if you're smart, you should have some faith in your ability to adapt and improvise. FWIW, I was in a similar situation when I was 27 (I'm 31 now), and did something very similar to what I initially suggested: I took a job where I would acquire a skillset that would allow me to become self employed (and which involved initially taking a position for FAR less than I could have made in the corporate world).

Three years later, I'm self-employed, have plenty of clients that I can bill for $100 an hour (which more than covers my lifestyle), and I have tons of free time to pursue trading. I'm more of a swing trader than a day trader, but I have lots of time for research, which is really valuable, and if I want to take a few days off to go to Vegas and play poker or whatever I don't have to ask anyone for permission. Speaking for myself, I've never been happier.

But I think everybody is different and people have different personality types. I hate working in a corporate structure, but other people legitimately enjoy it, and that's great. I think everybody has to chart their own path. But I think based on what he's said, my advice would be to go for it and be aggressive. You only get to live life once, and the people that are unhappiest as they get older are often times the people that weren't aggressive enough about trying to do what they want to do when they were younger.

no, no

You are correct...

The GTO is a strategy to always have someone to pay you until you become competent to be independent. So, yea, wp.

Beta is more relevant in an investing context than a trading one. I mean obviously volatility is relevant. But if you are thinking in terms of Beta and a "risk adjusted basis" in the context of trading...I think you might want to reconsider hour philosophy.

Trading should look more like this:
entry - stop loss = risk
target minus entry = profit

probability of hitting stop loss
probability of hitting target

EV = (risk or profit) * probability

FWIW, this is just like poker.

Obviously you want to think about your risk of ruin which is the above related to your BR, etc.

Beta is more for portfolio management in long term buy and hold.