You were their #1 choice, because you didn't have the qualifications/experience the MBAs had. Companies don't look for the highest/best qualified person, they look for the person who would deliver the best bang for the buck. If they wanted to pay $54k/year, they'd go with someone with more credentials and experience.

So you think he *should* act like a whiny kid? Or that thinking that 45 hrs a week is a lot is pretty lol? Or that the more you work the more you learn? Don't be such a moron.

My guess is you have pretty much zero idea what it takes to work in real finance/valuation/investing gigs, particularly in a non-S/T job [where you can work 45 hrs in an entirely different environment than the one described above.]


edit: J-Lo is also correct in his assessment of the offer.

There was no whining. You need some time off mate.

Don't know what there is to disagree with Najdorf on...
The only thing I would do, depending on the relationship with the boss is see if you can study for the CFA at work instead of doing nothing.
We have really only got past the point of people getting over fired and those positions getting filled again, barely even ramping back up. If you give it a good 2 years, pass level 1 , you should be in fantastic shape to move then.

The guy has a job, doesn't like it much but his not desperate. Selling himself high is a great plan.

Sounds like his handling himself well and I bet his learning.

For your counter-offer - I will say from my experience this past year, it is highly unlikely to be considered. Even though the market has "rebounded", the workforce is still receiving the shock/ripple from last year. For my current job then even told me "Your offer is $x, and it is non negotiable".

Firms are holding more of the power when it comes to hiring in the current market; if the money is about the same, pick the one you think you will enjoy more and will look better on your resume. If you're considering staying in Boston long term (which it does sound like from the owning a house), then the ability to move vertically within the same firm should also be ranked in to your decision.

Good luck sir.

Looking better on the resume will be countered by having moved jobs. Its a trick you don't want to play too often so it may be better (far better imo) to stick in the current job while looking for a significantly better job rather than moving for something a little bit better.

Err, no. If he's only been at this job for 2-3 months, he just doesn't put it on his resume after he takes the new position for future applications; he has the new job take it's place on his resume for first year work out of college. Future employer won't care that he started in 8/09 vs 11/09 as long as you're there a year.

Sounds good. But how much are you making now? Changing jobs can be an excellent opportunity for a nice pay increase.

Don't give up if this company doesn't take your offer. Just keep looking!

I've said it before, and I'm sure I'll say it again, one of the hardest things for me to do was turn down job offers (when I was unemployed), but I'm so glad I did it. With you already having a job that pays the bills, you have no reason not to take your time and look for something that really suits you.

I apoligize if I sound whiny. The posters in this thread seem fairly divided on that opinion. As for whether or not I'm acting whiny, I don't really see where I've diverged from the correct mature and adult course of action. The facts are 1. I have a job, it isn't great, it isn't directly in the field that I wanted, but I'm certainly very fortunate given the economy. 2. My job makes no attempt to retain people for a long period of time. I have next to no benefits. They don't expect me to remain loyal and stay for an extended period of time; they expect me to be there and do my work well, which I do. 3. I applied for another job, got an offer, but do not want to leave for a pay cut which I was clear about from the start.

I would be more than happy to have the opportunity to work 60+ hrs a week and learn the intricacies of more serious finance. But that's not the position I'm in. We don't have that level of work available to us, and I would describe the finance as "soft" meaning that our methods are boilerplate and our methods and results have a high degree of triviality. If you have any suggestions about how to get my foot in the door at a place with more serious finance, where there's legitimately 60+ hours of work to be done each week, or if you just want to share what you do then I'd really appreciate that.

That was the impression I was under too. However, in my lengthy discussions with the person who I am replacing he said the most important thing to the company is a seamless transition, and that I was the only one with valuation work experience. I guess I'm putting that belief to the test.

Unfortunately this is a no-go. Also lots of people pass the level 1, so am I right in thinking that when I do pass it, my value to employers won't actually increase by much?

Yeah I don't think that my chances of landing this job are that great. Which would look better on a resume though, two years at the same firm or two seperate year long stints at different firms provided that the second firm would teach me some new methodologies and give me more money?

I was under the impression that as long as the next job is an upgrade, moving after a year wasn't a big deal. Isn't the average job jumps in a person's career up to like 7?

OP I think you've handled yourself quite well and are looking at your situation objectively and realistically.

I think given the current job situation and your field, you'd be nuts to leave a job before you had something more solid to get into.

I don't fault you one bit for looking around and at least seeing what other prospects are out there though.

I might add that if I were in your shoes, I'd be willing to sacrafice a higher salary in order to gain experience and get in with a firm that has potential for me to learn and grow in.

I think whoever suggested staying put and getting into the CFA program had be a good idea, especially if you have downtime then it should be an easy sell to your boss.

As far as counter offer goes I really don't think its bad. It's probably a tad high but it shows that you think you're more valuable to them and that you're willing to negotiate, something I think they'll view positively. The worst they can say is no and come back with a counter offer. The counter offer really has more upside than down in this case imo. Not to mention you already have a job so its not like you're being unreasonable in asking for more money.

9 hours a day isn't that bad though...but I know it sucks if there is downtime and really no point to being there.

2 weeks vacation time is great. It takes 5 years to get that where I work.

Lastly, I don't think any of this comes off as whiny one bit. No sense in waiting 2-3 years before you decide your current position isn't going anywhere. Again, its always smart to know what else is out there and available, even if you're just curious.

The problem is that it blocks you. At the moment there's no issue you can look for a better job, but suppose you move to this new job without it being much of an improvement on your current job. You're now in much the same situation but now looking for another job would mean three jobs in a short period (and you better not get it wrong or it will be looking for a fourth job in a short period).

Far better to look for a significant improvement - which it sounds like you're doing.

hi op, i'm 21 and i go to tufts. it's pretty random to see somebody from TU on 2p2. also working on graduating in quant. econ/art history double major so i'm basically in the same area as you are. good luck.

You must be making at least decent money if you can afford a 3k a month mortgage... I wouldn't say 60k is low paying at 22.

Also finance is sort of like poker in terms of work loads... there are huge swings. Some days are insanely busy while others are slow. With that said I think I'd ask to take on more projects, in terms of process improvement, and like others said show that you can do more than just complete what is put in front of you.

This post is awesome. I agree with everything except for the CFA advice. Unless you want to get into equity research, it's a waste of time IMO. Some will disagree, but in my experience it's way too time consuming and not enough to differentiate oneself in a tough job environment.

I don't make anywhere near 60K. At my current company it would take me 5 years to get to that pay scale, if they would even go that high.

I am regularly asking for new projects and asking to work with the other analysts on their more complex projects, but the issue remains that there isn't a ton of work to be done a majority of the time, and when there is a backup of work its because the bosses are running behind on stuff that they have to do and not because the analysts are behind. Quite honestly we have four analysts but we could probably get by with two, save the 4 times a year when we need everyone.


Anyway they came back with another offer, raised the salary to $45K and clarified some things about vacation that are encouraging. Unfortunately they won't budge on the bonus issue. Hopefully I'll be able to speak to someone today over the phone and come to some sort of agreement.

Right now I'm leaning towards taking the hit and going with the offer, and learning as much as possible about their methods and techniques. Then I'll pass the CFA in June begin work on the level 2, and start looking for jobs again in 2011. From what I've gathered the way my current firm does valuations is very grounded in financial theory, and the way the new firm does things is based off of how investment banks tend to value companies, so I'll likely learn a ton of new tricks.

Ever thought of talking with someone that works with the Tuft endowment?

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...xqJDhcM&pos=14

I'm in a similar position. 22 yo in an entry level analyst position. Same pay range/benefits/level of interest in my company.

You've conducted yourself very well ITT and I'm not sure how anyone could view it as whiny.

Hope all is well, I'm sure you've done your research on the new company, but do more. As many others have stated it would be much better to have 2.5-3 years experience at the one company, than to hop over to a very similar paying job that you also are disinterested in.

I guess I'm saying if the job is the same benefit to you, don't take it. Only change companies/plans/industries if you can gain something from doing so :-\

OP - If you leave a job which is essentially your first in this horrid environment you are asking for trouble. Employers always question why someone only stays at a certain place for so little time. You never want to give them a negative..... get 3 years of experience and by then the world may be an easier place and you will have decent goodwill in the marketplace

(FWIW - I changed inv banking jobs 3 times in 7 years and it always comes up, even when I am running my own show (investors etc notice))

Based on my discussions with management at the new company, their methods for valuation are very different from the ones my current company uses. My current company tends to do income based valuations which are conceptually very easy to understand, but also hard to do accurately without an intimate knowledge of both the company and the industry. The new company tends to do market based valuations, which might be fuzzier in terms of the underlying financial theory, but it seems like that's more the standard for investment banking and private equity.

If I stay at my current company for another year I don't see myself learning 1/10 of what I would learn if I go to this new firm. But I don't really know how important what I'm learning is because this wishy washy valuation for tax and planning purpose stuff isn't really what I want to be doing in the long run.

Take my advice with a grain of salt. I'm a econ grad student in my mid-20's with no work experience in finance, so this is just my personal opinion.

This maybe a liability, in the sense that it won't be easy for you to get up and move to a new city if a job opportunity opens up. If I was in your situation, I wouldn't want something like that holding me back.

Don't sell yourself short, you probably do deserve it. Getting a job is about a lot of factors, GPA only being one of them.

Can you explain a little more about the type of valuation you do? Business valuation can be a very useful skill for transitioning into other areas of finance. If you're doing the type of business valuation that is used in finance textbooks and equity analysis, then you're getting some pretty useful experience.

What do you mean by low? I'm guessing a job like that should pay between $30K - $50K. I wouldn't sweat the salary too much, at this stage in your career you're trying to gain relevant experience to transition into something that pays well, and that you want to do long term.

I wouldn't sweat that too much. It's a weird policy, but you should just be trying to use this job as a stepping stone anyway.

It's probably just the type of place that is perfect for people fresh out of undergrad. After a few years, they have the credentials to make more money doing something they enjoy more, so it no longer makes sense to work there. In other words, it's the type of place where you put in your time and move on.

You should definitely be trying to network. If you don't interact with clients, you should be trying to meet people some other way. Join professional organizations, make friends with people in the industry, consider getting an MBA, etc.

Again, you shouldn't be thinking about getting promoted at this place. You should be thinking about what you can still learn there and how long it will take to learn it, and go somewhere else. Sounds like the type of place that you should only spend 2-3 years at.

Wow, that barely keeps up with inflation. Again, you should be thinking about how you'll leverage this experience to get a new job in the near future (like 1-2 years).

You should think about getting a CFA (assuming it aligns with your long term career goals). However, you shouldn't be thinking of getting the CFA so you can get promoted at your current job, but rather as a way of transitioning to something better. If you have 2-3 years work experience, and passed the level 1 or 2 CFA, you could probably get some good junior analyst jobs in wealth management or corporate finance (and maybe even at other places). So start studying for the CFA now, so that hopefully you'll have level 1 or 2 done by the time you're thinking of moving on.

I'm not sure how good the experience is, as I'm not super knowledgeable about the industry. Furthermore, I'm not sure exactly what kind of valuation you're doing, which will have a huge influence on how useful this experience is. In regards to leveraging your experience, I'd say learn as much as you can in the next 1-2 years there, work hard and impress your bosses (solid references), start networking a little, and start studying for the level 1 CFA (which you can take in June).

I will probably take you up on the offer in the future. I'm hoping to get a finance job myself after grad school.

So after several back and forths with management I've decided to accept the offer with the new company. They came up somewhat in the salary department and their outlook for the coming year is very positive. They just weren't comfortable giving me everything I wanted when they had a poor 2009, and can't really be sure what they're going to be getting from me. Anyway, they certainly understand that I've made concessions to come work for them, which I'm happy to do because the prospect for learning is so much higher than at the job that I had been at. Hopefully I can learn quickly and impress and then if business picks up again I'll be in a good position to get my salary raised to where I want it to be.

Glad to hear. Good thread and best of luck at your new gig.

Good luck. Sounds like a good opportunity and move.

I don't work in the financial sector, but I have hired a lot of people over the years, and I think in a general sense people are making way too much of this job hopping thing. You are trying to find an environment that allows you room to grow and learn as much as possible.

No right thinking employer is going to hold that against you.

Just a heads up the company I'm leaving posted a job listing for my replacement. If anyone's looking for immediate finance work in the greater Boston area pm me and I can send the link.