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How to profit from Fed and Government incompetence How to profit from Fed and Government incompetence

07-19-2014 , 11:20 AM
I'm done responding to the other nonsense you're stating, You have said twice now that New York is the #1 unhappy city in america. I think you meant #1 most stressful from a recent CNN article that was posted because, yes, people do in fact work harder and more hours here than anywhere else.

We are happy to do so though and I love living here. I'll await for your #1 unhappy link/evidence though.

Last edited by DickFuld; 07-19-2014 at 11:42 AM.
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07-19-2014 , 12:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by steelhouse
Rainetech, I think you possibly could have helped me break something big. If the land is free, and since New York city covers 304 square miles of land and has 8.4 million people every citizen should have 1011 square feet of FREE land to work with. If the land is free the citizens should only be paying for the building. Since New York is a port and generally level land, it should be cheaper to build in New York than Bismarck North Dakota. The cost to build an apartment building unit is 64K to 80K http://www.fixr.com/costs/build-apartment. 80K over 30 years is $250 per month. Thus rent in New York City should be less than $250 a month! since an apartment build probably lasts over 50 years.

Technically the city could impose building permits to keep the quality of construction high, but as long as the residents own the buildings, rents will be low. As a resident of the city you would also be responsible to maintain the public areas, however I think it should be cheaper than to maintain the apartment building.

Thus, the average New York citizen should be paying $500 a month to own an apartment and maintain the city. No other taxes are needed.

I thought this was satire until reading your other posts. No way you can actually believe any of this.
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07-19-2014 , 11:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ODUK
I thought this was satire until reading your other posts. No way you can actually believe any of this.
No offense the land owners are playing all the renters of New York as a bunch of fools. There is no reason to accept a rent more than $0.50 a square foot, thus a 1000 square foot apartment in a new building would be $500 a month.

Henry George, who once ran for mayor of New York, and was probably poisoned, explains it as time goes on the land will accumulate into fewer and fewer hands. The high wages of Wall Street and the banks are ripe for the taking, just own the land adjacent to the jobs. The government, unions, and landlords are commencing a feeding fest on the fat Wall street salaries.

I live in Los Angeles and pay about $150 a month rent for a 2300 square foot living space (prop 13). This poor sole pays $800 a month for 78 square feet. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4FoAr8i26g .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwvmru5JmXk


The guy only needs to change the law saying he owns the land under the building and he could be living in 1000 square feet in this place for $250 a month rent.

http://nextbigfuture.com/2013/05/220...-ahead-to.html

Last edited by steelhouse; 07-19-2014 at 11:34 PM.
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07-19-2014 , 11:39 PM
Steelhouse you are flat out wrong. Demand is higher in NYC than anywhere else in America. You know what else the beauty of capitalism provides? The ability to form a REIT to buy up land/buildings if you think you can enslave the renters. Every time you make a point it can be disproved a million times over. I'm not sure what form of economics you follow but man you are definitely somewhere in outer space. Nor did you show proof of NYC being the most unhappy city in america but congrats on posting it twice and instead responding to the post below mine.
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07-20-2014 , 12:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RaineTech
Steelhouse you are flat out wrong. Demand is higher in NYC than anywhere else in America. You know what else the beauty of capitalism provides? The ability to form a REIT to buy up land/buildings if you think you can enslave the renters. Every time you make a point it can be disproved a million times over. I'm not sure what form of economics you follow but man you are definitely somewhere in outer space. Nor did you show proof of NYC being the most unhappy city in america but congrats on posting it twice and instead responding to the post below mine.
I own REITs. Even with REITs land will accumulate into smaller and smaller hands IMHO. Once someone receives more income than they spend, what will they do with the excess? They will invest into more REITs. REITs don't build the apartments, the construction workers do.

The buildings on the land are capital, but here is an example how the rent is paid out.

$250 cost of building (capital)
$1500 land owners (land)
$250 city (tax)
$250 unions (tax)
===========
total cost of apartment $2250 a month

If a law was passed saying the permanent residents own their fair share of the land of the city, they could charge the land owners $1500 a month to use their land. Thus, the apartment owners would sell the apartment to the owners of the land at cost or abandon it. The city has no right to the land either, to tax is to own. The unions would not really be needed anymore. The relative wage of the former union worker would go up, because they are doing real work.

Thus the new rent would be:
$250 cost of building (capital)
==========================
total cost of apartment $250 a month

Demand does not matter as you can move up in the sky. There is still 1100 square feet of land for everyone in the city. if you include Long Island as a whole, you got about 5070 square feet per person.

As a capitalist you would still be able to sell apartments, paint, steel, painting services, insurance, and subways to the residents. You just could not lay claim to the land under their home.

Rents are high in New York city for one reason only! Not demand! It is that the land is owned by relatively few people.

Suppose you buy a piece of land in the Arctic along the Arctic Ocean you call this company in China and have then build a skyscraper for you for X amount of dollars on 20 acres of land. Suppose you have 20 acres of land on New York City. The company in China could probably build the same skyscraper for X amount of dollars.

The rent for 1000 square feet is basically:

cost of building per square foot * 1000 / lifespan in months

Now suppose the apartment building is owned by the residents in the Arctic and the residents in NYC. The rent per square foot would be the same.

Last edited by steelhouse; 07-20-2014 at 12:31 AM.
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07-20-2014 , 01:19 AM
If one person owned all land and nobody demanded to pay for it, would the rent still be high? The answer is no. Supply meets demand to find price, that is capitalism. I'm done with this absolute hogwash logic that you were brainwashed into believing. /thread.
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07-20-2014 , 02:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RaineTech
If one person owned all land and nobody demanded to pay for it, would the rent still be high? The answer is no. Supply meets demand to find price, that is capitalism. I'm done with this absolute hogwash logic that you were brainwashed into believing. /thread.
Then why aren't more apartments being built in NYC to lower the average rent to $250 for an apartment? The actual cost of the apartment.

The Law of Rent

http://www.henrygeorge.org/pchp11.htm

Private Property in Land is Inconsistent with the Best Use of Land

http://www.henrygeorge.org/pchp31.htm

"If land were treated as public property, it would be used and improved as soon as there was need. But as private property, an individual owner is allowed to prevent others from using what the owner cannot — or will not — use. Large tracts are kept idle at the caprice of the owner, held out of use waiting for higher prices. Meanwhile, others are forced to use places where their labor will be far less productive. In every city, valuable lots may be seen vacant for this reason. This means of using land is as wasteful, unnecessary, and uncertain as burning down houses to roast pigs." - Henry George

Edited by Me for NYC

"If land were treated as owned by each citizen, it would be used and improved as soon as there was need. But as controlled by one large owner is allowed to prevent others from using what the owner cannot — or will not — use. Large tracts are kept idle at the caprice of the owner, held out of use. Meanwhile, others are forced to use places where their labor will be far less productive (long commutes). In every city, valuable lots may not be used appropriately by the large owner. This means of using land is as wasteful, unnecessary, and uncertain as burning down houses to roast pigs. If each individual were to own the land, if they needed apartments they could build apartments where and when they want."
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07-20-2014 , 02:32 AM
The answer is so god damn simple that I can't even believe I'm responding again. You seem to believe that a random plot land regardless of location is worth $x amount valued at nothing more than the size the land. How much is 10,000 sq ft of land worth in the real world that sits on a huge supply of oil, or uranium, or with an abundance of super high paying near jobs across the street. Likewise how much is 10,000 sq ft of land in the middle with no other added value worth? By your definition the answer is $0.25/sq. ft. (or in fact lower since that's what the rent should be after the cost of building, maintaining, and providing amenities are added.) Are you really so dense as to be incapable of seeing of how this wouldn't work?
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07-20-2014 , 09:39 AM
Ya this thread is tilting
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07-20-2014 , 10:04 AM
steelhouse,

Your plans are a good start for an ideal economy, but don't go nearly far enough. Just because poor people will have the ability to move to Iowa and own their fair share of farm land doesn't mean they'll be able to do much with it. It takes a ton of labor to grow crops or to run any kind of agricultural business. The government needs to provide free labor to all land owners. With our current system, the greedy capitalist overlords can just lure away all the good laborers, leaving none for the poor.

Perhaps we should incorporate some policies of more socially progressive areas of the world, like Dubai for example, where land owners get the free labor they are rightfully entitled to as human beings.
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07-20-2014 , 10:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RaineTech
The answer is so god damn simple that I can't even believe I'm responding again. You seem to believe that a random plot land regardless of location is worth $x amount valued at nothing more than the size the land. How much is 10,000 sq ft of land worth in the real world that sits on a huge supply of oil, or uranium, or with an abundance of super high paying near jobs across the street. Likewise how much is 10,000 sq ft of land in the middle with no other added value worth? By your definition the answer is $0.25/sq. ft. (or in fact lower since that's what the rent should be after the cost of building, maintaining, and providing amenities are added.) Are you really so dense as to be incapable of seeing of how this wouldn't work?
Oil, uranium mines are special cases. Technically the oil and uranium land is owned by the government and the land is leased to the oil and mining companies to extract it.

By my definition, if someone moved out to Kern County to drill for oil they would need to get a permit from the government to do so. However, if they wanted to build a house in Kern County, they would be entitle to use a plot of land free of charge. They would only pay for improvements.
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07-20-2014 , 10:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by juice binge
steelhouse,

Your plans are a good start for an ideal economy, but don't go nearly far enough. Just because poor people will have the ability to move to Iowa and own their fair share of farm land doesn't mean they'll be able to do much with it. It takes a ton of labor to grow crops or to run any kind of agricultural business. The government needs to provide free labor to all land owners. With our current system, the greedy capitalist overlords can just lure away all the good laborers, leaving none for the poor.

Perhaps we should incorporate some policies of more socially progressive areas of the world, like Dubai for example, where land owners get the free labor they are rightfully entitled to as human beings.
Land zoned farmland should be owned by the government an leased to the highest bidder. Presently land leases for about $270 an acre in Iowa. Suppose you decided to move to Wright county Iowa. 581 square miles and 13,229 people living on it (28 acres per person). Leased land should produce more corn per acre than family farms. Eagle Grove, Iowa in Wright county is zoned as a city. 3583 people live on 4.04 square miles or about 31,000 square feet per person. Basically you can have a free acre of land to live there.

So basically someone from Manhattan with $1,000,000 should be able to move to Eagle Grove and lease 10 acres of land for 10 years within Wright County for $27,000. The land is not owned by inefficient family farms that waste land and cry out for subsidies.

Nobody is a slave. The laborers that work these farms can quit and start their own farms and keep the benefits of their labor.
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07-20-2014 , 02:51 PM
I went to a weekly conference in the Henry George School back in 2011. Stunned to see the sheer amount of "blaming someone else for their problems" mindset. My eyes rolled so much that I almost became blind.
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07-20-2014 , 03:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ff2017
I went to a weekly conference in the Henry George School back in 2011. Stunned to see the sheer amount of "blaming someone else for their problems" mindset. My eyes rolled so much that I almost became blind.
Henry George attracts socialists. The reason is he wrote a book and wrote the wrong solution - land value tax. Taxing land and giving it to government is not a solution. I think I corrected his error in this thread. All it takes is one city to adopt the policy I propose and the rents will fall to $250 a month - the cost of the building. The low stable rents will attract the best corporations to the city as they will be the most profitable. The best talent of the country will go to that city and it will create a spiral effect. No conferences are needed. Henry George conference most likely has a bunch of school teachers wanting more. A Mises or Austrian conference has a bunch of land owners trying to justify owning land as a career.

Last edited by steelhouse; 07-20-2014 at 03:57 PM.
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07-20-2014 , 04:54 PM
step 1: claim anything given out for free by the government is perverted
step 2: demand that the government give out free land and apartments in NYC
step 3: claim that Ayn Rand is correct
step 4: claim that demand is in no way related to rent prices
step 6: ?????????
step 7: profit



yeah I know I added some steps.
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07-20-2014 , 05:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by steelhouse
Henry George attracts socialists. The reason is he wrote a book and wrote the wrong solution - land value tax. Taxing land and giving it to government is not a solution. I think I corrected his error in this thread. All it takes is one city to adopt the policy I propose and the rents will fall to $250 a month - the cost of the building. The low stable rents will attract the best corporations to the city as they will be the most profitable. The best talent of the country will go to that city and it will create a spiral effect. No conferences are needed. Henry George conference most likely has a bunch of school teachers wanting more. A Mises or Austrian conference has a bunch of land owners trying to justify owning land as a career.
Why would the smartest people and best corporations go to your proposed first city to do this? There are thousands and thousands of apartments in las vegas that are near that cost already, a pretty massive city by any metric. Is it not a perfect example of how your idealism fails miserably? I'd go as far as to say that las vegas has attracted the worst corporations and the dumbest people of anywhere else (though that's probably not true, some random southern city will probably take the cake there.) I've lived there and seen how many legitimately irrational and unintelligent residents of the area are.

Yet despite a place with low rents existing (the underlying basis of your flawed theory) the demand for apartments in NYC increases, as does the the cost of rent (although rent increases are pretty small.) In NYC, most people I come across are quite intelligent, and work much longer hours. The jobs here demand more from its employees both in productivity as well as intelligence, and naturally the companies that are here make a lot more as a result. The same can be said about specific concentrated areas of very intelligent people in other areas, like silicon valley (prices have risen as the level of productivity and intelligence of employer demands has risen) or Boston.

Last edited by DickFuld; 07-20-2014 at 06:21 PM.
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07-20-2014 , 07:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by riverfish1
step 1: claim anything given out for free by the government is perverted
step 2: demand that the government give out free land and apartments in NYC
step 3: claim that Ayn Rand is correct
step 4: claim that demand is in no way related to rent prices
step 6: ?????????
step 7: profit



yeah I know I added some steps.
1. The government does not give out free land, in fact the government is prevented from entering or taxiing it. They might be used for imminent domain, but manily for land owners that take more than their fair share.

2. Government does not give out free land, a government can be arrested for entering your property.

3. Ayn Rand basically said the individual has rights. He or she is not a sacrificial animal to the state.

4. Demand could be related to rent prices where land can be accumulated like gold. However, rent prices should be determined by the building you place on the property, not by government taxes or monopoly of land. The government might charge $1000 a person to live in the city, but that is to pay for police, firefighting, and roads.
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07-20-2014 , 07:23 PM
Unreal thread, even for steelhouse.
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07-20-2014 , 07:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RaineTech
Why would the smartest people and best corporations go to your proposed first city to do this? There are thousands and thousands of apartments in las vegas that are near that cost already, a pretty massive city by any metric. Is it not a perfect example of how your idealism fails miserably? I'd go as far as to say that las vegas has attracted the worst corporations and the dumbest people of anywhere else (though that's probably not true, some random southern city will probably take the cake there.) I've lived there and seen how many legitimately irrational and unintelligent residents of the area are.

Yet despite a place with low rents existing (the underlying basis of your flawed theory) the demand for apartments in NYC increases, as does the the cost of rent (although rent increases are pretty small.) In NYC, most people I come across are quite intelligent, and work much longer hours. The jobs here demand more from its employees both in productivity as well as intelligence, and naturally the companies that are here make a lot more as a result. The same can be said about specific concentrated areas of very intelligent people in other areas, like silicon valley (prices have risen as the level of productivity and intelligence of employer demands has risen) or Boston.
New York has Wall Street, a port, and is a banking capital. New Yorks strategic land brought people to New York. Las Vegas is in the middle of the desert.

The median sales price of previously owned single-family homes last month in Southern Nevada was $195,000, up 1.6 percent from April and 14.7 percent from a year ago, according to a new report from the Greater Las Vegas Association of Realtors.

Las Vegas main industry is tourism and gambling, they are the first to go in a recession.

Despite this Las Vegas is the 3rd fastest growing city since 2000. Rents are not monopolized as bad as other cities.

1 Raleigh, NC 804,436 1,188,564 384,128 47.8% 3.3%
2 Austin, TX 1,265,715 1,834,303 568,588 44.9% 3.1%
3 Las Vegas, NV 1,393,370 2,000,759 607,389 43.6% 3.1%
4 Orlando, FL 1,656,835 2,223,674 566,839 34.2% 2.5%
5 Charlotte, NC-SC 1,729,023 2,296,569 567,546 32.8% 2.4%
6 Riverside-San Bernardino, CA 3,277,578 4,350,096 1,072,518 32.7% 2.4%
7 Phoenix, AZ 3,278,661 4,329,534 1,050,873 32.1% 2.3%
8 Houston, TX 4,716,964 6,177,035 1,460,071 31.0% 2.3%
9 San Antonio, TX 1,719,262 2,234,003 514,741 29.9% 2.2%
10 Dallas-Fort Worth, TX 5,239,149 6,700,991 1,461,842 27.9% 2.1%
11 Atlanta, GA 4,297,419 5,457,831 1,160,412 27.0% 2.0%
12 Nashville, TN 1,387,274 1,726,693 339,419 24.5% 1.8%
13 Jacksonville, FL 1,126,224 1,377,850 251,626 22.3% 1.7%
14 Sacramento, CA 1,808,442 2,196,482 388,040 21.5% 1.6%
15 Denver, CO 2,194,022 2,645,209 451,187 20.6% 1.6%
16 Washington, DC-VA-MD-WV 4,862,582 5,860,342 997,760 20.5% 1.6%
17 Salt Lake City, UT 942,666 1,123,712 181,046 19.2% 1.5%
18 Portland, OR-WA 1,936,108 2,289,800 353,692 18.3% 1.4%
19 Tampa-St. Petersburg, FL 2,404,273 2,842,878 438,605 18.2% 1.4%
20 Oklahoma City, OK 1,097,874 1,296,565 198,691 18.1% 1.4%
21 Seattle, WA 3,052,379 3,552,157 499,778 16.4% 1.3%
22 Richmond, VA 1,058,816 1,231,980 173,164 16.4% 1.3%
23 Indianapolis. IN 1,664,431 1,928,982 264,551 15.9% 1.2%
24 Columbus, OH 1,681,865 1,944,002 262,137 15.6% 1.2%
25 Miami, FL 5,025,806 5,762,717 736,911 14.7% 1.1%
26 San Diego, CA 2,824,987 3,177,063 352,076 12.5% 1.0%
27 Minneapolis-St. Paul, MN-WI 3,044,901 3,422,264 377,363 12.4% 1.0%
28 Kansas City, MO-KS 1,818,073 2,038,724 220,651 12.1% 1.0%
29 Louisville, KY-IN 1,123,966 1,251,351 127,385 11.3% 0.9%
30 Memphis, TN-MS-AR 1,216,293 1,341,690 125,397 10.3% 0.8%
31 San Jose, CA 1,739,669 1,894,388 154,719 8.9% 0.7%
32 Birmingham, AL 1,053,394 1,136,650 83,256 7.9% 0.6%
33 San Francisco-Oakland, CA 4,136,658 4,455,560 318,902 7.7% 0.6%
34 Baltimore, MD 2,557,501 2,753,149 195,648 7.6% 0.6%
35 Grand Rapids, MI 934,388 1,005,648 71,260 7.6% 0.6%
36 Virginia Beach-Norfolk, VA-NC 1,584,042 1,699,925 115,883 7.3% 0.6%
37 Cincinnati, OH-KY-IN 1,999,787 2,128,603 128,816 6.4% 0.5%
38 Philadelphia, PA-NJ-DE-MD 5,693,275 6,018,800 325,525 5.7% 0.5%
39 Hartford, CT 1,150,915 1,214,400 63,485 5.5% 0.4%
40 Boston, MA-NH 4,402,611 4,640,802 238,191 5.4% 0.4%
41 Los Angeles, CA 12,398,950 13,052,921 653,971 5.3% 0.4%
42 New York, NY-NJ-PA 18,976,899 19,831,858 854,959 4.5% 0.4%
43 Chicago, IL-IN-WI 9,117,732 9,522,434 404,702 4.4% 0.4%
44 St. Louis,, MO-IL 2,678,224 2,795,794 117,570 4.4% 0.4%
45 Milwaukee,WI 1,502,305 1,566,981 64,676 4.3% 0.4%
46 Rochester, NY 1,066,335 1,082,284 15,949 1.5% 0.1%
47 Providence, RI-MA 1,586,744 1,601,374 14,630 0.9% 0.1%
48 Pittsburgh, PA 2,429,023 2,360,733 (68,290) -2.8% -0.2%
49 Buffalo, NY 1,169,159 1,134,210 (34,949) -3.0% -0.3%
50 Detroit, MI 4,457,471 4,292,060 (165,411) -3.7% -0.3%
51 Cleveland, OH 2,147,948 2,063,535 (84,413) -3.9% -0.3%
52 New Orleans. LA 1,336,795 1,227,096 (109,699) -8.2% -0.7%
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07-20-2014 , 08:14 PM
Aha! So you thwarted my example of why you were wrong by actually stating why NYC is in the middle of somewhere and las vegas is in the middle of no where, and thus pricing should be different. You do realize that you literally just came full circle into admitting the fallacy of what you seem to be trying to profess? NYC has a lot of things going for it = higher land value, las vegas does not = lower land value. To hand out free land unconditionally means everyone moves to the places with something going for it and abandons all the ones that don't. Thank you for finally coming to your senses and proving your own fallacy.
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07-20-2014 , 11:02 PM
Do not argue with steel house. He's either a troll or a moron. It's all the same
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07-20-2014 , 11:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RaineTech
The best way to take of advantage of the fed and government incompetence is to watch Elon Musk work his magic.
<snip>
Post of the year. Every bit of it true.
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07-20-2014 , 11:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RaineTech
Aha! So you thwarted my example of why you were wrong by actually stating why NYC is in the middle of somewhere and las vegas is in the middle of no where, and thus pricing should be different. You do realize that you literally just came full circle into admitting the fallacy of what you seem to be trying to profess? NYC has a lot of things going for it = higher land value, las vegas does not = lower land value. To hand out free land unconditionally means everyone moves to the places with something going for it and abandons all the ones that don't. Thank you for finally coming to your senses and proving your own fallacy.
What I am saying is land should be free in both places. To live in NYC you have 1011 square feet to work with. Assuming 50% of the land will be public spaces (roads,parks), you have 500 square feet. Thus, you have to build up. Structure would have to be given a 50 year life, when they expire you would be building most likely a 20 story apartment minimum.

In Las Vegas, you got about 6000 square feet per person. That is about the size to allow one story homes on a 50x100 lot and 4 people probably live on that.

The higher you go the costs of construction per square foot are generally higher. Real estate costs about $1363 a square foot in New York, yet it only costs $200 a square foot to build. As George stated, land is being held out of proper use since it is private property. From that table above as long a population grows slightly, prices can be maintained. However, once people state leaving the game is up, vacancies rise and prices crash. The crash will attract new residents.

I am still shaken that 2 million people now live in Las Vegas, I can remember when they hit 1 million and I was shocked at that.
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07-20-2014 , 11:48 PM
steelhouse, honestly I have disproven your theory multiple times here, and you even disproved it yourself unknowingly. Pretty sure this is a /thread ages ago, no use continuing any further. My very first post regarding Elon Musk's ability to take advantage of the current government policies was enough to suffice. Everything beyond was just you digging a hole to get buried in. I sincerely hope people reading this don't begin to think they have found something based on what you have posted.
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07-21-2014 , 01:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RaineTech
steelhouse, honestly I have disproven your theory multiple times here, and you even disproved it yourself unknowingly. Pretty sure this is a /thread ages ago, no use continuing any further. My very first post regarding Elon Musk's ability to take advantage of the current government policies was enough to suffice. Everything beyond was just you digging a hole to get buried in. I sincerely hope people reading this don't begin to think they have found something based on what you have posted.
Elon Musk is a champion. He is not some clown running an REIT.

As clearly stated in this thread, if owners of the land in the city were considered the residents of the city, real estate prices would crash to value of the structure. I win, you lose as your only argument are insults. All we need is one city in a good location to adopt this idea and all other cities would have to or go into ruins like Detroit.

Last edited by steelhouse; 07-21-2014 at 01:26 AM.
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