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Old 06-17-2017, 08:07 PM   #651
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Re: Ethereum - Blockchain App Platform

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Originally Posted by lostmypw View Post
if a killer app does arrive on the ethereum scene, does it not soon after expose the elephant in the room, the scaling problem?
Yes, unless it is able to do off chain tx with Raiden and sharding. Right now ethereum cannot handle massive amounts of tx. See heavily in demand ICOs. I am optimistic it will eventually scale. Pos will help too.
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Old 06-18-2017, 12:37 AM   #652
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Re: Ethereum - Blockchain App Platform

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Originally Posted by housenuts View Post
Because pos wasn't invented
Proof of Stake is still not invented. If ICOs are the only use case for ETH it's doomed. It's not like ETH holds a monopoly on crypto crowdfunding. Remember how ETH was funded? Bitcoin.

There's pretty much no reason something like BAT needs their own coin. They could use bitcoin just as easily to do what they're doing. For raising funds they could have just used a multisig address. The only reason they chose to do an ICO is because they knew they could fleece investors out of millions in seconds with the promise of future profits on their tokens they just created out of thin air. It's no different than all the crap coins that were/are being created daily, but now it's easier because you don't have to recruit miners!
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Old 06-18-2017, 03:03 AM   #653
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Re: Ethereum - Blockchain App Platform

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Originally Posted by lol vanguard View Post
This is your killer app? Come on heltok, you can´t be serious. Besides, we had both blockchain based games as well as provably fair games before without the need to run it on a smart contract.
I didn't say it was a killer app. Just that it fulfilled the requirements given.
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Old 06-18-2017, 02:07 PM   #654
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Re: Ethereum - Blockchain App Platform

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Why do these ETH apps always look like some crappy site from the early 90s?

I can play blackjack with some hot Russian host live on Pokerstars, or I can take a step back in time and play Atari blackjack with ETH.
This sounds silly but raises a great point.

To turn even the best software technology into a product that consumers want to use, you first need a business model that will generate excess profits after paying the salaries of all the expensive full-time designers, developers and managers required to deploy and maintain something that consumers enjoy.

Otherwise you have Linux; something that creates enormous value but has to be monetized in a completely different way---e.g. as a technological enabler to enterprises.

This seems the the clearest future application of the blockchain and smart contracts, imo. There are probably great efficiencies for clearing houses and other institutions in the financial backbone.

But if consumers ever interact with smart contracts directly at "mobile-scale", I think the point-of-contact product is going to be unlike anything that exists today. (Honestly, I think the entire economy would have to look very different.)

Deploying consumer software at mobile-scale is just an insanely, unbelievably hard and expensive thing to do. Once https://winsome.io/ is at least a link to, I don't know, Thailand's highest-traffic online casino, we will start to have some data points about the business models that will sustain the development and deployment of smart contract-based consumer software.
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Old 06-18-2017, 02:46 PM   #655
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Re: Ethereum - Blockchain App Platform

https://www.funfair.io/ is launching it's ICO in a few days, probably a good bet (har har) for "actual nice looking gambling app on Ethereum". Founder is was a founder of PKR, I believe.
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Old 06-18-2017, 07:14 PM   #656
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Re: Ethereum - Blockchain App Platform

I assume an ICO is literally the same thing as an IPO, as in prop up the price by investing bitcoin/ETH and hope it goes to the moon?
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Old 06-18-2017, 09:15 PM   #657
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Re: Ethereum - Blockchain App Platform

Anyone have opinions on the upcoming status ICO?
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Old 06-18-2017, 11:22 PM   #658
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Re: Ethereum - Blockchain App Platform

https://www.e4row.co.il/

Whats this all about? Trying to set up some kind of app market? I know was one of the ICOs a while ago.

I put some ETH on Uncle Finney's poker but there was no one to play against (lowest stake)
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Old 06-18-2017, 11:41 PM   #659
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Re: Ethereum - Blockchain App Platform

JermNZ,

A couple posters are discussing it in the Alt Coin thread. I'm probably going to flip some coins but still doing a bit more research on it and haven't yet fully committed. The team behind it is credible in the community & the whitepaper is solid. I'm going to spend more time tomorrow thinking about it. FWIW no clue whether it'll outperform Eth long-run and I don't have much of an opinion beyond I think it'll likely be profitable as a short-term hold.

Also, thumbs up to ETH poker. Haven't looked into who's developing a platform, but I will definitely come out of retirement and donate a few stacks on that if and when there's traffic going
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Old 06-19-2017, 12:00 AM   #660
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Re: Ethereum - Blockchain App Platform

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Originally Posted by _dave_ View Post
https://www.funfair.io/ is launching it's ICO in a few days, probably a good bet (har har) for "actual nice looking gambling app on Ethereum". Founder is was a founder of PKR, I believe.
Thanks for sharing this. The $125 million hard cap seems high upon initial look but will do a deeper dive.
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Old 06-19-2017, 03:26 PM   #661
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Re: Ethereum - Blockchain App Platform

I'm having a bit of time understanding how the FunFair token creation event works...is this the ICO you mentioned? Could you give me cliffs version?
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Old 06-19-2017, 03:36 PM   #662
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Re: Ethereum - Blockchain App Platform

I don't really understand these things myself, but my take on it is that yes the ICO is "initial coin offering" event, where a bazzilion funfair tokens are spawned from nothing and sold off to people for eth. This provides funding for the company to make their white label casino business/products, and hopefully future value for investors as the tokens are of fixed quantity and will need to be purchased / burned to play the games.

I certainly don't know enough to get involved myself or recommend others do or do not. Was just my first thought at an ethereum dapp that might not have horribly amateurish graphics / UX, since the guy made PKR all those years ago.
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Old 06-19-2017, 04:15 PM   #663
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Re: Ethereum - Blockchain App Platform

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Originally Posted by _dave_ View Post
I don't really understand these things myself, but my take on it is that yes the ICO is "initial coin offering" event, where a bazzilion funfair tokens are spawned from nothing and sold off to people for eth. This provides funding for the company to make their white label casino business/products, and hopefully future value for investors as the tokens are of fixed quantity and will need to be purchased / burned to play the games.

I certainly don't know enough to get involved myself or recommend others do or do not. Was just my first thought at an ethereum dapp that might not have horribly amateurish graphics / UX, since the guy made PKR all those years ago.
I am new to this and have a very limited understanding: But why don't the companies that raise these large amounts of >100M USD in ether in their ICOs just abandon their project and run away with the ether? Or, alternatively, build a successful product with the money but never pay back the investors?

Do the investors believe that real-world laws would prevent them from doing this? Or do they just trust that the issuers of the tokens are stand-up guys? This seems strange, considering all the efforts cryptocurrencies have made to eliminate the need for trust in the system.

Does anyone have a link to advocates of ICOs discussing these kind of points?
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Old 06-19-2017, 04:59 PM   #664
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Re: Ethereum - Blockchain App Platform

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Riccardo Spagni from Monero. He educated the other people on the panel on a lot of different things but the quote of the day was: “There are scammers that don’t realize they are scammers yet.”.

https://medium.com/@WhalePanda/conse...p-36e91b91aa9a
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Old 06-19-2017, 05:16 PM   #665
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Re: Ethereum - Blockchain App Platform

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Originally Posted by Shadowlike View Post
I am new to this and have a very limited understanding: But why don't the companies that raise these large amounts of >100M USD in ether in their ICOs just abandon their project and run away with the ether? Or, alternatively, build a successful product with the money but never pay back the investors?

Do the investors believe that real-world laws would prevent them from doing this? Or do they just trust that the issuers of the tokens are stand-up guys? This seems strange, considering all the efforts cryptocurrencies have made to eliminate the need for trust in the system.

Does anyone have a link to advocates of ICOs discussing these kind of points?
ICO's are essentially tech memorabilia, akin to sports memorabilia. You are buying rookie cards and hoping one of them becomes a hall of famer.
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Old 06-19-2017, 08:35 PM   #666
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Re: Ethereum - Blockchain App Platform

Didn't you say you were going to leave this thread? What happened? Stuff like this is exactly what I'm talking about making this thread become as toxic as the BTC community. What honestly goes through your head before posting straight garbage dude? It's straight ANTI-ETH shilling - just read the comments below in his post for a more accurate reflection and decide for yourself whether it's a balanced objective look at things or written by someone who's not a developer, but instead a hack who pays for his lunches by only writing content saying how awful Ethereum is. If you need even more proof, just look at his twitter page.

99% of this thread is great, and then there is you. Don't mistake this as an attack on you as a person, it's directly aimed at your posts and the useless discussion/information you bring to this thread - which is straight Eth FUD. If this was politics or a subject matter that people had a clearer idea of the applicable content matter, I'm confident you would have been banned weeks ago. We both know this of course, and I honestly have no idea why people such as yourself get the motivation to only post the way you do in a forum thread of people who're excited to learn about a new technology, and honestly at this point I don't even care. It's just pathetic, because through self-education on the subject matter I'm very confident you know that that's what you're doing. I'll just leave it at that.

I think it's clear by now to everyone what I think of the integrity of your posts, and we're all tired of this (or I am) so to break this useless cycle of back-and-forth with you (you shilling, me calling you out for it) I've decided the best solution is to just put you on ignore. I don't want to spend any more time getting sidetracked debunking FUD and can concentrate my time on ICOs/relevant Eth subject matter. So yeah, go nuts.
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Old 06-19-2017, 08:59 PM   #667
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Re: Ethereum - Blockchain App Platform

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Originally Posted by Shadowlike View Post
I am new to this and have a very limited understanding: But why don't the companies that raise these large amounts of >100M USD in ether in their ICOs just abandon their project and run away with the ether? Or, alternatively, build a successful product with the money but never pay back the investors?

Do the investors believe that real-world laws would prevent them from doing this? Or do they just trust that the issuers of the tokens are stand-up guys? This seems strange, considering all the efforts cryptocurrencies have made to eliminate the need for trust in the system.

Does anyone have a link to advocates of ICOs discussing these kind of points?
Right now there are some straight scams (like iDice, which stole the source code of another ICO - Etheroll) so you need to be very careful because there isn't much, if any, accountability so I found researching the team a ton helps. That being said, there are scams in any kind of commerce so awareness is step #1. Specifically to your question, search on r/ethereum BAT ICO buy out and you should find a thread that pertains to your questions (cliffs: it's complicated but token holders could possibly be screwed).

Personally, I question 95% of them as long-term holds, especially vs holding Ethereum instead. For general advice, IMO the only way to navigate ICO's is by patience and thorough due diligence (at least in the current environment). R/ethereum is a good source of information and great starting point, as well as slack channels & r/(insert ico name). I personally start by quick googling to filter out straight junk and then of course reading the Whitepaper. I could make a whole post on Whitepapers but that's another topic (as a sidenote: if anyone wants to see in my opinion a good v bad one read status v tenX). It also helps to see what the community at large is discussing about it - if I find any red flags or something doesn't sit right just insta pass.

For example, I spent 10 hours looking into TenX so I could write forever on why it's not a good spot despite looking pretty cool, but that's what you should likely be doing before even thinking of investing in any of them. If this all sounds cumbersome, it kind of is. But I truly think there are no short-cuts (and if you take any, you'll likely get burned). Probably the best advice I can give you is if you are unsure about your competence level on how to sort out what's crap or not, I'd say don't invest in any of them. A lot of them will fail (but yes, I do believe some will succeed).

Last edited by Kazuya; 06-19-2017 at 09:05 PM.
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Old 06-19-2017, 09:09 PM   #668
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Re: Ethereum - Blockchain App Platform

A few days ago I found myself standing there looking around at the crypto scene and asking how likely it was that ETH was still fairly or undervalued when all all around was chaos and carnage-in-waiting and 4 chan /biz making 500% returns pumping projects to greater fools.

For example, I have always strongly believed a reasonable valuation for REP is in the $2 to $4 range yet it trades waaaay above that. The potential value of nearly all crypto projects is severely capped by the ease of setting up a competitor. In todays viral world network effect can be cheaply overcome with the right mix of killer features, timing and luck. Having open source code bases with no IP protection is asking for trouble.

With all these crazy valuations around I decided it is too likely that ETH is now also at least fairly valued and lightened up my ETH % from maximal to minimal.

There might never be another good entry point to ETH, but there are going to be many many more crypto projects to choose from in this sea.
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Old 06-19-2017, 09:32 PM   #669
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Re: Ethereum - Blockchain App Platform

Quote:
Originally Posted by aggo View Post
https://medium.com/@WhalePanda/conse...p-36e91b91aa9a

Basically everyone I talked with agrees that Ethereum will split again into multiple chains with the PoS switch, besides the fact that there can potentially be huge issues/bugs with PoS.
is everyone he spoke to completely retarded? why would the scenario ever play out like this? sure, the pow miners can recreate a chain without the ice age, but it is going to be much smaller than the main chain and so will their profits. they'll just end up ****ing themselves.

the current ethereum network becomes congested during ICOs means that a scaling solution through PoS and sharding is mandatory before a good use case app emerges. therefore in the event of a pow/pos chain split there's also no incentive for anyone to build dapps on the pow chain given the need of scaling to sustain them.

the optimal play for miners is to move to etc and continue mining there while advertising it as the safest alternative to the experimental proof of stake network.
Quote:
Another point that obviously came up was Vitalik. He isn’t nearly as intelligent as he thinks he is or as other people think he is (of course this is subjective, just giving the general sentiment). The people I talked with think it’s mostly due to his lack of experience/age that he’s just too naive. Adam Back for example is on the other side of the spectrum where he has the experience to deal with complex situations to find the right solutions (sorry Adam, not calling you old, just experienced). Common remarks on Vitalik: he doesn’t understand game theory and he doesn’t understand network theory. Developers of other crypto projects also pointed out that the math he used in a 40 page paper on scaling made no sense.
more useless fuddy character assassination bull****. who are these people that he spoke to and why are they an authority on any of these topics? what are the specifics of his misunderstandings in game theory, network theory and scaling math? it means nothing until he gives the names, arguments, etc.

i'm not saying vitalik can't be wrong, but none of this means anything. these people have a great incentive to criticize the leader of the most ambitious cryptocurrency project because they are competing with him. put it together with an interviewer like whalepanda who dislikes ethereum for some reason (as evidenced by his dishonest/fuddy coverage) and and likes to bend the truth (misrepresentation of vlad zamfir quotes, for example) and you get a sensationalist article like this one that shouldn't be taken at face value.
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Old 06-19-2017, 09:50 PM   #670
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Re: Ethereum - Blockchain App Platform

Man WhalePanda really getting you guys riled up.

I've been following him on Twitter for a while and to me he comes across as reasonable, logical and a straight up guy who has been trading crypto for years.

Your reactions to his article says more about you and your irrational exuberance for ETH than anything else imo.
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Old 06-19-2017, 10:10 PM   #671
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Re: Ethereum - Blockchain App Platform

Anybody live in the San Fran area or know somebody who does who would want to try and make $1000 worth of ETH. Kraken is holding some of my money for absolutely no reason. They are "having issues" with synapse pay their fiat processor and they have reduced my fiat cashout limits which is fine. What is not fine is the fact that I cancelled my fiat withdrawal because of this and it has been in "cancel requested" mode for over 2 weeks now and not 1 response from many attempts to reach support. So now I can't even buy coins and get the money off the site because the money is in limbo.

They have an address listed as

237 Kearny Street #102
San Francisco, CA 94108

I'm not sure if that's just a mailbox or what. I don't know if anyone else knows how to tell.

Anyhow, I'm going to give them a few more days to resolve the issue. If they don't, I'm guessing one of the best ways to get some response or action taken is to show up at their door. So if anyone is in the area and is interested in giving it a shot, if the person can get them to get my damn withdrawal out of "cancel requested" mode, I will pay $1000 worth of ETH.
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Old 06-19-2017, 10:36 PM   #672
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Re: Ethereum - Blockchain App Platform

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They have an address listed as

237 Kearny Street #102
San Francisco, CA 94108
google maps:
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Old 06-19-2017, 10:46 PM   #673
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Re: Ethereum - Blockchain App Platform

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Originally Posted by Kazuya View Post
Right now there are some straight scams (like iDice, which stole the source code of another ICO - Etheroll) so you need to be very careful because there isn't much, if any, accountability so I found researching the team a ton helps. That being said, there are scams in any kind of commerce so awareness is step #1. Specifically to your question, search on r/ethereum BAT ICO buy out and you should find a thread that pertains to your questions (cliffs: it's complicated but token holders could possibly be screwed).

Personally, I question 95% of them as long-term holds, especially vs holding Ethereum instead. For general advice, IMO the only way to navigate ICO's is by patience and thorough due diligence (at least in the current environment). R/ethereum is a good source of information and great starting point, as well as slack channels & r/(insert ico name). I personally start by quick googling to filter out straight junk and then of course reading the Whitepaper. I could make a whole post on Whitepapers but that's another topic (as a sidenote: if anyone wants to see in my opinion a good v bad one read status v tenX). It also helps to see what the community at large is discussing about it - if I find any red flags or something doesn't sit right just insta pass.

For example, I spent 10 hours looking into TenX so I could write forever on why it's not a good spot despite looking pretty cool, but that's what you should likely be doing before even thinking of investing in any of them. If this all sounds cumbersome, it kind of is. But I truly think there are no short-cuts (and if you take any, you'll likely get burned). Probably the best advice I can give you is if you are unsure about your competence level on how to sort out what's crap or not, I'd say don't invest in any of them. A lot of them will fail (but yes, I do believe some will succeed).
Hi

still waiting to see your arguments

Quote:
Originally Posted by aggo View Post
1- great post invictus

2-



There actually have been some very interesting academic studies like:

http://randomwalker.info/publications/mining_CCS.pdf

that clearly indicate that bitcoin does need to "scale." These guys show that when there is insufficient block reward, it becomes more valuable for a miner to preferentially confirm transactions than to simply select the highest fee'd txn being broadcast on the network because the value of possessing a confirmation will outweight whatever arbitrary fee you can assign to a txn. This is most easily explained when bitcoin reaches some "high" value relative to USD-- having a confirmation printed onto bitcoin's blockchain becomes paramount.

Although this paper does not discuss the "fee" market, the exact same principle they describe in their paper can be extrapolated to it. Meaning at some point the cost of broadcasting a txn to the network in order for it to get confirmed will become so burdensome that the utility of the network begins to degrade. The good news is that apparently people will happily pay 500 satoshis/byte on a regular basis, and we probably havent seen anywhere near the limit where transacting on bitcoin's overtly congested network becomes a net negative for people.

Back to scaling--

scaling to fix the two above mentioned issues in bitcoin is actually pretty easy. Increase efficiency of txn size, raise inflation rate, raise the blocksize, and funnel more txns into layer 2.

Scaling on Ethereum is a lot trickier because validating txns and smart contracts on a node is not trivial for the cpu (vis a vis to bitcoin). storing all of these txns will be very burdensome soon. If smart contracts and dapps actually ever get used on ethereums network (i'd venture to guess that like 90% of smart contracts on eth right now are erc20 token accounts & 8% multisig, and 2% dicking around) the amount of bloat and congestion will be mind boggling.

I havent even gotten to the fact that no one knows for sure if these dapps may even be economically feasible because layering smart contracts inside of smart contracts has tremendous impact on gas expenses and blockchain bloat. Meaning what happens to Augur when it costs more to run the platform autonomously in gas than the market can charge in fees? No one has any idea what happens to dapps like Augur when the entire economic incentive to be a fair reporter is completely removed. As ethereum's daily txn volume rises, this problem for dapps will only become worse because gas costs will rise no matter how many times Vitalik tells miners to lower minimums.

"please accept lower fees,
no, **** you, blockchain is 10 tb and it costs real $$ to keep nodes up."

finally a note on "store of value"

Its a very nuanced argument and not something thats very obvious. Bitcoin was not a pre-mine, it was not an uncapped ICO, when **** got stolen-- friends did not preferentially bail out each other. These things may seem trivial or idealistic to some, but I am relatively certain that if digital assets like cryptocurrencies ever become mainstream, those things will actually matter to those who are picking which assets to store their "money" in.


and finally, no one gives a **** about who here has in eth or btc or equties or bonds. The only people who do are the idiots who want to live in an echo chamber and have such low iqs that they cannot evaluate an argument on its own basis without involving personal biases



i suspect you dont have any, but thats ok, par for the course in this fomo kid thread.
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Old 06-19-2017, 10:51 PM   #674
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Old 06-19-2017, 11:08 PM   #675
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Re: Ethereum - Blockchain App Platform

Does anyone know if the devs have suggested what the block reward will be when metropolis is implemented? They are going to delay the ice age and I know Vlad was all about slashing the rewards at $80 by as much as 80%. So I'm sure now that we are at $350, this is even more of a priority. Would be a big let down if they did nothing about it. Will also be a HUGE catalyst if they do. I haven't ran any numbers, but I'm guessing they could cut them by 90% at these prices and still be plenty secure.
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