Hello All,

I've been a consistent poker player/gambler (internet/live cash/live tournies/card counting BJ) for more than a decade and have been mainly a 2+2 "lurker" for nearly that same time frame (with random posts every now and then). I've also been day trading options with decent returns for about the last 2 years. There is a poker "BBV" forum (and I've had my lion's share of those over the years), but here's my "Day Trading BBV."

I went on a crazy ride the last six weeks of day trading options. After grinding out decent returns, I allocated $8k specifically for super high risk, super high variance options on 5/8/17. Each and every day's result is verifiable with screen shots, should I feel the need. I may add to this thread as a quasi blog, if anyone is interested in that type of thing (or I may disappear back into "lurker" status). Don't know yet. That being said, here we go, my Day Trading BBV:

Starting capital (allocated for day trading options) on 5/8/17: $8000.

5/8: +1943
5/9: +1371
5/10: +2352
5/11: (5332)
5/12: +5638
5/15: +1577
5/16: (4193)
5/17: +3356
5/18: +3032
5/19: +2722
5/22: +2239
5/23: (466)
5/24: +4985
5/25: +2715
5/26: +2320
5/30: +418
5/31: +2401
6/1: +1884
6/2: (2371)
6/5: +3057
6/6: +835
6/7: +166
6/8: +1415
6/9: +1562
6/12: +5096 (should be noted that I switched over to "margin" here from a "cash" account to give me access to more capital on a daily basis (and bigger swings))
6/13: +5588
6/14: (5317)
6/15: +24513 (got insanely lucky after I gambled and put a bunch of weekly TSLA calls on "red" overnight in the stock market roulette table and TSLA came up red in a big way this morning. I rarely ever hold anything overnight, but all my indicators told me this could be a big one overnight, so I went with it and got lucky).

Starting capital allocated for DT options: $8000
Profit since 5/8: $63,506
Ending capital on 6/15 for DT options: $71,506

Yep, I turned $8k into $71k in just under 6 weeks. I'm technically ahead of Dan Zanger's (so-called) world record pace, but he did that over an entire year (and then another year also). I luck boxed myself six weeks with no guarantee I don't piss it all away tomorrow. Plus, I'm now dealing with money with which I am no longer comfortable taking as big of a gamble (I won't be parlaying the entire $71k for high risk options--but I am still parlaying $50k of it after taking $21k out in cash).

So that's my Day Trading BBV....

A brief glimpse of the last few days. Willing to show the symbols I traded and the end realized gain, for now. Again, I also realize my whole options roll could fly up in smoke in a day or two (and then I'll have an options "beat" story instead of a "brag").

Cool story bro.

Yeah, I should have just kept this one to myself. Being drunk and high after a $25k day makes you think you're super duper special and that people want to hear about how super duper special you are. I'm going to regret this entire thread when I wake up and try and delete it somehow.

My bad.

lol, I know that feeling all too well^

still nice brag. gl

If you make good posts I'll def follow for curiosity sake. Not a day trader myself, but enjoy reading nonetheless. So yeah, post the why you're choosing to do X,Y,Z rather than just the play. Speaking for myself that makes it way more enjoyable to read (thought process vs only just brags beats/outcome)

Sounds good. But regardless, one thing that is for certain is that I need to somehow get rid of the whole "I'm beating Dan Zanger" thing in the title of this thread, because that just makes me a complete douche.

So some screen shots of the journey. I put 4k in OptionsHouse and 4k in TradeKing at the beginning of May for this particular high risk play. Obviously, for anyone reading this, the disclaimer is that more often than not, you will loss your a#$ trading weekly options (notice I've had a few -$5k days). They are (one of the many) deadly siren songstresses of the market.

I've shown the symbols I'm trading. The TK shot shows whether it was a put or call. The missing screen shot is last night's +$25k on TSLA puts that I held overnight, as it hasn't processed yet.






Beginning of June, I transferred some of my OH and TK earnings to another broker for better commissions.



And that's the last 6 weeks from an $8k experiment. Again, it was $8k I could reasonably afford to lose (and in all likelihood should have lost it). Had TSLA skyrocketed today (instead of gapping down), I would have lost a big chunk of my profits. But, as I said, I am a gambler.

Hopefully this ride ends with some decent earnings instead of ending broke...

GL man. I think it took me several years run my 4 figure account up to 70k. You are making it look too easy

And a final disclosure. Last year I turned 3k into 45k over 6 months (jan - june) trading options. I then turned the 45k into 12k from june - sept). I then withdrew the 12k and played a ton of 2/5 NL for a reasonable win rate for a while.

Glass half full (for last year): I tripled my 3k investment into 12k and then added the proceeds to my poker bankroll to play full(ish) time.

Glass half empty (for last year): I lost 33k in the market in 4 months and then reverted back to poker.

Hopefully the ride this year has a slightly different ending....

Forget day trading, stick with roulette or craps. In the long run you'll lose money at both, but at least at the casino you get free cocktails and see some nice titties on the waitresses.

Yep, I agree. Especially day trading options. I'd guess my risk of ruin is probably about 99%, given a long enough time period. Thus, I'm 99% likely to lose my shirt if I keep on this path.

However, until that inevitable "shirt losing" day comes, I did make 35 trades today and was correct on 34 of them, for an end result of +4,300. Some puts and calls on various symbols, per the below screen shot. That places me at +41,000 so far for the month (but there's still two weeks left for me to piss it away).




All positions for the day were closed out, except my 15 6/23 AAPL calls. I bought the 15 about 3 minutes prior to close with the idea that I'm going to hold until early next week. This was the one trade that I technically lost money on today, but I entered with the idea that I'm holding through the weekend (so it's not a "closed" loss, just yet). I hate holding overnight/overweekend, but I just couldn't resist the pricing after AAPL took a dump right before the close and blew through 143, 142.5 and then I came in at 142.4 (I had 142.5 as an entry for the day, and when it hit 142.4 just before close, I had to do it).

Thanks, I appreciate the well wishes.

Nice run, you know you don't have to risk it all

Without getting into specifics, what is your trigger? Technical, fundamental, news, order flow??????

Are you trading mostly/only stuff expiring in the current week? Are you only buying options or do you short as well? If only buying and going against you do you try to salvage or just let it go?

You seem to stick with the high volume, high volatility stuff which is what you need when going for big inter day moves. Are those the only few you look at? DO you trade in, at or out of the money?

So here's my way TMI post that will answer your above questions. I also received a few PMs that asked similar type inquiries, so this TMI post should just about cover all of the currently outstanding questions:

Background: First off, I've been trading for about six years. I have my JD, but have spent probably 2-3x the amount of time studying, back testing, reading and analyzing the stock market than I ever did in law school. My first three years in the market, I was mostly a swing trader. The fourth year I started day trading equities. Last year I got into day trading options. I've had pretty decent returns every single year, except for my first year, where I lost about $2k (from an initial "buy in" of about $10k). It's all "self taught" (no formal finance education, just the BS (political science/business) and a JD).

I have a separate poker cash bankroll specifically allocated for poker. I have a 401k from 5 years that I spent at a law firm out of law school (been on my own for the last few years). I'm late 30s and have zero debt (student loans paid off, etc.). My income now comes from day trading, poker and contract legal work (if I want the work--I've got some former clients that still like me to do some work for them). Thus, the $8k I allocated for day trading options on May 8 was not money I needed for rent, bills, or even poker. It was specifically a high variance, high risk play.

Triggers: All of the above. I use four computer monitors. I have one screen that shows multiple level 2 orders and volume flow and corresponding charts based thereon. I have one screen that sets different technical indicators and charting tools. I have a third screen for news and alerts. My fourth screen is my brokerage for trading.

Prior to trading, I spend a couple of hours the night before and about an hour before the open planning the 5-8 stocks I'm watching and the moves I'm thinking may happen, based on all of the above info. These can obviously change intra-day, but I set my screens for these particular symbols based on my previous analysis of the moves I'm watching.

Expirations/ITM/OTM: I usually trade the first or second weeklies. Within the first or second weekly, whether I trade "In the Money" or "Out of the Money" (and how deep either way) depends on a multitude of factors at that moment in time. I will say, however, that here is one of my personal biggest tips for trading options (which again may not mean s#$t):

Prior to the market open, I pre-calculate the Decay and the Delta of various levels of ITM and OTM for the options I'm looking at for the day, based on a $2,500 open (my opens are usually $2-3k). This is my Delta/Decay cheat sheet and I keep it next to me. Thus, when I'm thinking of entering a position, I can quickly look to see what the actual decay and delta is of a $2,500 open based on the current price. Sure, I could quickly calculate it prior to opening the position, but the 30 seconds it would take to make that calculation when trading in real time, could be the difference between getting the price I'm looking for and missing it. Thus, I look at options a little differently than a normal security. I don't think, "I'm risking $2500 with this AMZN open," or "I'm risking $2500 that AMZN will go up," or even that "I'm buying $2,500 of AMZN options." Instead, I think, "I'm risking 'x' amount of decay for 'y' amount of delta with this AMZN option." So when I see a position that I'm highly confident in and the markets are moving, I'm willing to risk a little more decay for a little more delta. If the market is a little flat or I'm not as confident in a position (but many of my triggers are still hitting), then I hedge down the amount of decay I'm willing to risk. Thus, my entry (and how far ITM or OTM) is strictly based on how much decay v. delta I'm willing to risk at that moment in time.

I tried doing quick decay/delta calculations when trading "live," but it was just too difficult to do it on the fly while in the middle of day trading. So, every single morning, I spend 15-20 minutes developing my decay/delta cheat sheet for 5-6 levels for the 5-8 stocks I'm watching that morning. Then, when entering a position, I simply look at my cheat sheet to find the decay level I'm comfortable risking at that moment based on a $2500 open.

(If someone's got a better solution (or thinks my cheat sheet is just plain dumb, because "insert why it's dumb") then please let me know.)

Finally, I'm also willing to "average down" should the need arise. I realize that only "losers average losers," but with the volatility of options, I sometimes need to average down, which increases the size of my open positions. But after averaging once or twice, it's likely the case that I am simply wrong and need to get out of the trade.

Symbols traded: I mainly stick with high cap, S&P 500 stocks (to and including the S&P itself via the SPY). The S&P 500 is pretty much my "watch list" and then the night before I develop my refined intra-day watch list of about 5-8 stocks.

What I read: Everything. I read earnings, CNBC, and anything else that may be relevant. I even read any and all court filings if a lawsuit is filed. For example, when AAPL filed suit against QCOM (and QCOM then filed its counterclaim against AAPL) a few months ago, I read the complaint and have continued to read any and all filings in the attendant lawsuit (PACER is a legal filing system for federal court that attorneys/legal personnel need in order to file pleadings. However, anyone can get a PACER account, and with it, you can read every filing in every lawsuit around the entire country for 10 cents a page). So I read every legal filing if it involves a publicly traded company. 95% of the time it's just junk with no value, but every now and then you'll find a gold nugget and can base investments on it. You can also make a judgment as to how valid you think the actual lawsuit is (the likelihood of success or failure or settlement), and again, make a play based on such analysis.


Really, there's no shortcuts in the market. Much like poker, it takes a lot of studying, analyzing, replaying hands, discussion, etc. (and then still no guarantee you'll be profitable). Like I said, I lost 20% my first year swing trading. But I kept grinding and studying and analyzing and I then slowly developed a profitable system that has given me a progressively increasing return percentage over the last five years, culminating in this recent run. And in all reality, the $70,000 I made over the last 6 weeks was probably 95% luck and 5% skill. The only "saving grace" is that I've made about 200 completed trades (in my own personal "phraseology," I refer to an open and then a subsequent close as one "completed" trade) during that j6 week time frame and I think I'm about 196 profitable (winning trades) versus 4 unprofitable (losing trades). Granted, one misplayed losing trade can wipe out your buyin (whatever that amount may be).


So that's my TMI post. Oh, and I'm also such a ballar, that it's Friday night and I'm sitting at home writing a dissertation on an internet forum.

eh, normally I close these threads, but you seem innocent enough, are posting real screen shots and trying to have open discussions as opposed to just brag. So carry on

This is actually something I've thought about from time to time, although I don't have any formal legal education beyond a smattering of contract law stuff so I don't think I'd have much of an edge.

Still, from time to time there are lawsuits that really move the stocks (especially for small caps), so if you were willing to take the time to read the lawsuits on PACER and handicap the odds of a successful settlement I think you could do well.

The other thing I do is develop 2 day "look aheads" for the stocks I'm currently watching (I did a lot of construction litigation, and in construction projects the contractor has to develop a look ahead schedule of how he/she sees the entire project developing. He/she then may have to tweak the look ahead schedule as necessary, depending on various conditions as the project develops (i.e., unexpected weather delays, a sh***y subcontractor who doesn't do his job right, etc.). A contractor has to develop a look ahead schedule with incomplete information that is based on multiple parties doing multiple jobs in multiple conditions, and it's all based on the contractor's previous experience in similar situations. If the contractor is wrong with his look ahead schedule, it may cost the project owner a bunch of money (and in turn, the contractor gets sued and it costs him a bunch of money). So, I use that same theory with my stock look aheads (using incomplete information to develop a future schedule based on past experience).

So for a stock that I am monitoring, I develop a continually modifying 2 day look ahead. I develop the look ahead based on market conditions, current politics, fundamentals and various technical indicators (the whole "this one random squiggly colored line crossing this other squiggly colored line, that will hopefully mean this third squiggly line makes a move"). Sometimes my look aheads are pretty accurate. Other times they are a**backwards. But it gives me something to work from intra-day that is at least based on previous info and analysis.

My two day look ahead was the reason I decided to buy $3k in AAPL calls 3 minutes before the close on Friday (and hold them until Monday). The look ahead I had previously developed for Monday was a little like this (decent gap up in the morning with an eventual tail downward)*:



Again, this may be a security blanket type thing, but I don't think a person should simply start the day without at least developing a plan of attack prior to the market open.

*PLEASE don't take this as I am predicting that APPL will gap up in the morning and trail down in the afternoon. PLEASE don't follow my sh*&y look ahead or base any type of trade on it. One, I have no formal finance education; two, I am not a financial advisor; three, I am currently DRUNK as F*&# after grabbing way too many beers with a buddy tonight; and four, I'm a random nobody on an internet forum and have less than 150 posts in 5 years. This is simply an example of a stupid dumb look ahead that I may use for Monday. In all likelihood, I will have to throw it away when AAPL tanks Monday morning and I lose my $3k in AAPL calls. I'm simply posting it as an example of one of the different things I do to prepare for the market.

6/19

Well, so I got the morning pop from AAPL I was hoping for based on my above "look ahead," but then I pissed away all of the morning AAPL call profits by continually fighting the trend and looking for a downward tail that never came (even though all the other big guys (FB, AMZN, NFLX, TSLA) all hit their afternoon down. But se la vie. So I was right about the AAPL pop, but then completely a&$backwards with my AAPL puts. Oh well.

But, a couple of other stocks on my watch list made the moves I was looking for, so I was still able to grind out a good day.

Day: +$4,023
MTD: +$44,845
Since 5/8: +$71,922
DT Roll: $80,000 (rounding up the $78 I'm short)



So, my "milestone" for today is that I took my day trading roll from $8,000 to $80,000 in 6 weeks. I likely won't post another update until the end of the month, but would still like to discuss strat, should anyone still make any comments or be at all interested in that type of thing.

Thanks,
Sportsfanx1.

Few more questions.

What is your typical hold time? I expect this is one of the more treacherous areas of day trading short term options. Do you have price targets? Time targets? Trying to milk a winner can turn it into a loser pretty fast I would assume due to the combined factors of delta, gamma and theta.

I was an option market maker for years but as a market maker always immediately hedged out at least delta. I also was always very inactive during expiration week moving to the back months because close to expiration made hedging more difficult. But I can see how a speculative strategy can be beneficial on the real short term stuff.

On entries (and I guess exits) do you pick a price and work it of do you just blast bids/offers? I can see positives and negatives of both approaches.

Anyway I find this interesting. I won't be trading speculative short term options any time soon though Much happier trading futures which don't have that decay as well as deeper markets.

Continued good luck!

c'est la vie.

"That is life"

It's French. There's no way to **** up French without looking like a moron. Well, except for these guys.

What's funny is that I actually said something similar in a reply in some forum once upon a time. I told some dude it was a pet peeve when using the phrase incorrectly. So it's like I just changed lanes on the freeway and then left my blinker on for 10 miles after yelling at some dude for doing the same thing.

Being out of the full time legal field, my writing has definitely taken a crap (so much so I can actually feel the difference--which is one of the reasons I am enjoying writing out these responses (it gives me a reason to actually write something again)). So I actually do appreciate when someone points out a big f'up like that.

Thanks! It's good to hear from a true options pro . I'll try to answer these, but it will probably take a little time to develop my response.

Use your special knowledge. Most of the movement in the market is generated by people who don't have specific knowledge but sometimes they might have access to knowledgeable people. I know of someone who was a lawyer for a very long time before he started trading. He developed a big edge by figuring out how take advantage of what he learned in another profession. Most traders can't do that

6/20 - 6/21

Well, I think I'm done for the day. I've also had a bit of a change of plans due to my recent uptick (going to enjoy some of the fruits of my labor). I'm leaving tomorrow to take a trip to Vegas for a week. I've got a buddy who's never been to the WSOP, so I'm going to meet him in Vegas and put him (and me) in a bunch of the WSOP daily deep stacks, just so he can experience being at the WSOP (I don't think I'll play in any actual events, as I'd rather just enter a bunch of tournaments with my buddy (he's not the greatest at poker), drink some cocktails (to and including a likely drinking game of some sort based on "last longers" with my buddy) and have some fun with the smaller buyins).

When I get back from Vegas, I'm taking the gf to the Bahamas for a week.

Since I'm spending all this cash on myself, I'm also going to donate $3k for dog food at a bunch of "no-kill" dog shelters. There's a bunch of shelters around the country in dire need of food, so I'm going to send some food, via amazon, to a bunch of shelters until I hit $3k (I'm a huge dog lover).

So, I'll be gone for at least the next 2 weeks or so (I'll still be trading during the day, but likely won't log on to 2+2 for a while).

6/20: +$2453 (I had a "look ahead" showing that IBM was going to tank, so I loaded up on puts. It then went up instead. So I sold them. It then tanked today (6/21). So I missed that one by a day, but still grinded good profits).
6/21: +$3579

MTD: +$50,877