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Old Yesterday, 03:30 AM   #19826
iloveny161
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

Quote:
Originally Posted by vikthunder View Post


I don't think that vision of bitcoin will succeed, but obviously that's what the whole debate is about. If bitcoin can't process on-chain TX at a reasonable pace and price, people will move to ETH long before LN ever comes in to save the day...if LN even can save the day.

How should we define reasonable pace and price though? Transactions will keep growing until the block is full. I don't know if we can just keep doubling the block size forever.


I remember reading something on twitter by Charles Lee along the lines of there are always going to be tradeoffs among these factors:

1) Cost
2) Security
3) Speed

If we want to boost one, one of the other two has to take a hit. There is no "perfect" solution that is going to make the system amazing in all three aspects.

Soooo when Ethereum or Dash or some other coin can achieve better performance at scale in all three of those areas than Bitcoin, then we should gladly pivot over to that.
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Old Yesterday, 03:37 AM   #19827
iloveny161
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

Great to see you highlight the real use case of bitcoin- to track numbers and changes of these numbers, all of which cannot be over-written or corrupted without consensus (and that is all! nothing else). Happens to be an extremely valuable system if we decide to peg these numbers to money.


I actually suspect Luke was trying to make a point with the 300 kb to the people who just shout "big blocks" and haven't investigated any deeper.
If I started off being a big blocker and yet am somewhat intelligent, and I see someone that technically sound actually recommend a block size decrease, a position that is so drastically opposite to my own views, I probably would sit down and ask myself if I really understood the problem as well as I thought I did.
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Old Yesterday, 10:12 AM   #19828
LVpokerPRO
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

So what's the safest play to store ether? Myetherwallet seems to be the consensus pick right now
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Old Yesterday, 10:47 AM   #19829
housenuts
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

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Originally Posted by LVpokerPRO View Post
So what's the safest play to store ether? Myetherwallet seems to be the consensus pick right now
Ledger Nano S

I also like syncing the blockchain and using ethereum wallet. I wrote the following as a PM to someone

Quote:
Jaxx is a good mobile wallet for a small amount. Write down the 12-word passphrase and keep it secure somewhere, or multiple places. That way if you lose or break your phone, you can still recover your balance. Put a PIN on it too.

I use Ethereum Wallet on my computer. (https://github.com/ethereum/mist/releases)

There is both Mist and Ethereum Wallet. EW is a bare bones wallet. Mist has the wallet as well as a browser. They essentially work the same. Copy the wallet file UTC--...... to an external usb, multiple is preferable. Write down your password somewhere securely as well.

People also use https://www.myetherwallet.com/
I have never used it, but I hear good things. It's easier than getting EW or Mist and having to take a few hours to sync the blockchain.

If keeping funds on exchange, read this and follow it: http://blog.kraken.com/post/15320910...-mobile-phones
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Old Yesterday, 11:44 AM   #19830
bucktotal
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

i keep ETH keys on ledger blue. hoping the ledger wallets can support XMR soon too.

i tried the Trezor and myetherwallet this am. worked as advertised. i would consider storing some on the trezor now too.
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Old Yesterday, 12:02 PM   #19831
LVpokerPRO
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

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Originally Posted by bucktotal View Post
i keep ETH keys on ledger blue. hoping the ledger wallets can support XMR soon too.

i tried the Trezor and myetherwallet this am. worked as advertised. i would consider storing some on the trezor now too.
please check pm
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Old Yesterday, 01:03 PM   #19832
vikthunder
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

Quote:
Originally Posted by iloveny161 View Post
How should we define reasonable pace and price though? Transactions will keep growing until the block is full. I don't know if we can just keep doubling the block size forever.


I remember reading something on twitter by Charles Lee along the lines of there are always going to be tradeoffs among these factors:

1) Cost
2) Security
3) Speed

If we want to boost one, one of the other two has to take a hit. There is no "perfect" solution that is going to make the system amazing in all three aspects.

Soooo when Ethereum or Dash or some other coin can achieve better performance at scale in all three of those areas than Bitcoin, then we should gladly pivot over to that.
Great post. I think the bolded part is a big part of what the debate should be about.

I think it should be obvious that when the pace = unpredictable, Bitcoin becomes pretty much unuseable for most transaction types, steam purchases, gambling, other internet commerce, and especially LN transactions, as settlement dispute has a time function (# of blocks function more accurately).

If pace is predictable in that it's typically 10 min, and at most ~90 min to find a block and get your TX through, that's liveable for most transaction types.

As for cost, if you're not competitive, people will move on to other things, you'll lose your network effect and Bitcoin will become MySpace. So the question is, what is competitive? That's a different answer for a lot of people. Some people already left because $0.50 is too high. Some think $10+/TX is reasonable. I'd argue the people in the latter camp are wrong.

If TX fees aren't close enough to the fees for ETH and Monero people will switch. If enough people switch, bitcoin will lose it's network effect advantage and will be surpassed as the coin that people use for on line commerce. Once that scale tips, there's probably no going back. From what I can tell from most bitcoin user's I've chatted with, $1 fees aren't close enough. $0.01 to $0.10 fees probably are for most people, so that's my thought on where the line is.

As for security, that's a much longer discussion. Most argue that a smaller block size leads to more security. I think you should actually consider the alternate view, that a small block size inherently has lower security.
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Old Yesterday, 01:16 PM   #19833
housenuts
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

If anyone has Stars and wants btc or eth, I'm happy to trade. PM me.
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Old Yesterday, 06:28 PM   #19834
heltok
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

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Originally Posted by vikthunder View Post
From what I can tell from most bitcoin user's I've chatted with, $1 fees aren't close enough. $0.01 to $0.10 fees probably are for most people, so that's my thought on where the line is.
It should also be noted that they are not only competing for the current users but also for users who will be getting their first crypto in the future. An African farmer or a self driving car might have a very different opinion on $1 vs $0.01 than we have.

For myself, I have stopped recruiting people to Bitcoin by giving them $1. Instead I give them Ethereum that way. I find the fee a bit embarrassing when I try to tell people that crypto is the future. Ethereum with very low fees 15s confirmations and soon 4s confirmations provides the wow experience I want when I demo it!
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Old Today, 12:13 AM   #19835
NLNico
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

Blocksize isn't about pace or price of transactions. If the blocksize has an infinite size, it will always just keep increasing with sh*t transactions. In theory the ideal blocksize would be the biggest blocksize possible that doesn't negatively affect full nodes (and miners) as technology advances (both hardware and software.)

IMO the most rational thing to do is: activate SW as "quick" safe soft-fork (needs only some weeks if miners support it.) Analyze how the effective 1.85MB blocksize increase affects the network after some weeks/months (less/more nodes, transaction/block propagation, how many transactions, etc.) See if Lightning (and other L2 tech) works practical and will really help for micro/small payments (and what effects it has on the blockchain/transactions.) Partly based on that data, make a dynamic blocksize increase with a safe HF (long activation time, high signaling requirements, etc.)

TBH it seems rather obvious to go that path. Too bad that there are still irrational people supporting a completely reckless EC proposal that gives all power over the blocksize to just some miners, will never get majority support from the community and will be guaranteed to cause an undesirable split. Mainly because they believe some boring/false "Blockstream conspiracy theories". The BU/EC crowd is effectively blocking scaling solutions at this point.
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Old Today, 08:02 AM   #19836
ethbtc88
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

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Originally Posted by heltok View Post
Please define intrinsic value and use a definition that can sufficiently explain why a house in Detroit has a market value of $0 while the same house in California cost $1M.
So you are denying that intrinsic value exists? Thats, an...interesting perspective...........

p.s. those homes don't have a market value of $0. that's just the part that goes to the present owner. the costs you agree to pay are also part of the price: property taxes, etc.

Quote:
Don't buy any then.
I'm not. But I was secretly hoping someone here would talk me out of that.

However when denying intrinsic value exists and lologic like this:

Quote:
People were making the intrinsic value argument years ago and most likely regret not investing.
are the only arguments you guys can make -- I think I can be reasonably confident I've made the correct decision.

Will BTC go to $2,000 or more? Maybe. Just like I might win if I put it all on Red. That's not the point. I want to make sound investments, not get lucky and win.
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Old Today, 08:42 AM   #19837
heltok
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

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Originally Posted by ethbtc88 View Post
So you are denying that intrinsic value exists?
No just that it is not a very useful semantic expression. I just saying that price is mostly set by supply and demand. Fiat, Bitcoin etc have very low intrinsic value, still they are very valuable because they have a high demand and limited supply. Water is very valuable in the dessert but not in the jungle, but the intrinsic value is the same in both places, it's just water.
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Old Today, 12:39 PM   #19838
vikthunder
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

Quote:
Originally Posted by NLNico View Post
IMO the most rational thing to do is: activate SW as "quick" safe soft-fork (needs only some weeks if miners support it.) Analyze how the effective 1.85MB blocksize increase affects the network after some weeks/months (less/more nodes, transaction/block propagation, how many transactions, etc.)
If SW soft fork gets activated:

1) How long do you think it will take after activation for fees to become competitive again? (let's use <$0.05 as a generous definition for competitive)
2) How long after activation do you think it will take for TX backlogs to disappear to where if I pay a $0.05 TX fee, I will be assured of getting into the next 1-2 blocks?
3) How long do you expect that bitcoin will maintain that level of competitiveness before slipping back into the problems that it has now?


My guess is that with SW, 1 and 2 might not happen and in ~6-8 months we will be right back where we are now. I'm basing this on the historical growth rate of transactions on the bitcoin network, which has followed a largely predictable pattern.

If my guess is at all in the ball park, then it's not worth making everyone important in the bitcoin space upgrade their software for SW when they will need to re-upgrade their software again in 6-8 months to a better solution.

That means we're doing 2 major forks within a year when we've already said doing forks that require virtually everyone to upgrade their software in a short amount of time is hard.
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Old Today, 03:53 PM   #19839
bucktotal
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

seqwit isn't a scaling solution. its just touted as one sometimes to appease big blockers. the benefits of segwit go beyond bumping block size and tx/s by 2x.
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