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Old 06-17-2017, 10:57 PM   #20626
andr3w321
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

Quote:
Originally Posted by invictus-1 View Post
then the entry made to steal funds from the rightful owner of 184 billion bitcoins is also a reversal and therefore also suffers from the same criticism that you made of ethereum.
A BUG in the protocol caused the total money supply of bitcoin to increase 9000x. Clearly everyone's coins are worthless at that point. In DAO a bunch of people invested in a risky asset that happened to run on top of Ethereum and Ethereum said, here's a bailout for your mess up. How can you not see the difference in these two scenarios?
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Old 06-18-2017, 03:01 AM   #20627
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

I dont see very many arguments, mostly repeating the statements or ad hominem. Will address the few I found relevant:

Quote:
Even Vitalik claims it is not a currency.
It is not a currency. It's a platform for apps. Currency is one such app. Thus it can be used as a currency. It is like saying "A smartphone is a not a notebook". It is not, but it can be used as a notebook.

Quote:
This is not true, ETH is not limited. It has eternal inflation.
https://ethereum.stackexchange.com/q...her-be-created
Quote:
The effects of Ice Age:

Block 3000000 | approx ETH supply 87962556 | time '2017-01-16 00:38:33.067775' | blocktime 14.86
Block 3500000 | approx ETH supply 90612556 | time '2017-04-11 18:09:34.273529' | blocktime 15.27
Block 4000000 | approx ETH supply 93262556 | time '2017-08-15 18:20:24.642729' | blocktime 30.01
Block 4500000 | approx ETH supply 95912556 | time '2018-11-03 05:55:48.912370' | blocktime 136.71
Block 5000000 | approx ETH supply 98562556 | time '2025-10-02 11:47:30.658317' | blocktime 835.81
Block 5500000 | approx ETH supply 101212556 | time '2128-03-20 09:14:16.483692' | blocktime 17183.83
Block 6000000 | approx ETH supply 103862556 | time '5189-09-26 20:57:59.367004' | blocktime 520901.19
Maybe you think we will see year 5189 with 520k seconds block times before we see a hardfork? I think this is very unlikely. So for all my purposes Ethereum today is pretty much limited to <104M ETH. Next hardfork may or may not have a limited supply, I think it is very likely, given what Vitalik has said and what the community wants, that inflation will be 0 or going to zero from a low value(say <1%) pretty fast. We will see.
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Old 06-18-2017, 08:20 AM   #20628
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

Quote:
Originally Posted by andr3w321 View Post
This is simply not true. ETC working just fine is evidence that the hard fork was unnecessary and would not have resulted in the end of ETH if they chose not to fork. Instead they chose bailouts because those in power of ETH at the time had a lot invested in DAO and had a lot to gain by doing so.

In the bitcoin fork, 184 billion BTC were created out of thin air on an a blockchain no one mines anymore.
Quote:
Originally Posted by andr3w321 View Post
A BUG in the protocol caused the total money supply of bitcoin to increase 9000x. Clearly everyone's coins are worthless at that point. In DAO a bunch of people invested in a risky asset that happened to run on top of Ethereum and Ethereum said, here's a bailout for your mess up. How can you not see the difference in these two scenarios?
Thank you for being the voice of reason.

All chains are mutable by consensus. (Atleast that I know of.) Whether this is a feature or a bug depends on perspective. I think BTC was a feature and ETH was robbery. Until you strong ID wallets the owner of your magical virtual token is whoever has access (key/pass), having a community start to assert rightful/wrongful "ownership" is dubious and dangerous. But w/e. No one really cares about that, and it'd get solved when the community is large enough. Just steal like 5% of the coins or smth.
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Old 06-18-2017, 01:06 PM   #20629
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

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Originally Posted by andr3w321 View Post
This is simply not true. ETC working just fine is evidence that the hard fork was unnecessary and would not have resulted in the end of ETH if they chose not to fork. Instead they chose bailouts because those in power of ETH at the time had a lot invested in DAO and had a lot to gain by doing so.

In the bitcoin fork, 184 billion BTC were created out of thin air on an a blockchain no one mines anymore.
i'll repeat my question:
if another bug emits 1 billion bitcoins into existence today, is a hard fork acceptable or are you content with having 1 billion coins more because it's no longer in toy experiment phase?

besides the fact that ETC still functioning is completely irrelevant because no one knew what would happen with the original chain, how exactly is the fact that it's still alive today evidence that it's "working just fine"? ethereum has much bigger goals in sight than sustaining itself as a ****tier version of a superior chain whose only claim to fame is its debatable moral purity. if it ever reaches the goals of sustaining decentralized applications, having a proven malicious actor with that amount of funds is extremely dangerous.

Quote:
A BUG in the protocol caused the total money supply of bitcoin to increase 9000x. Clearly everyone's coins are worthless at that point.
i see you have figured out the dollar value at which a cryptoproject stops being an experiment. you also have figured the threshold at which it's okay intervene when everyone's coins become worthless.

could you provide the values and then the method by which you arrived to such values? what if the bug in protocol produced 200 extra coins? is that okay then? 1000? 50? 5000? because everyone's coins went down in value just a bit, but they're still worth something. at which point do you think intervention becomes acceptable?

i just honestly don't understand what criteria you use to determine when hard forks are okay and when they are not besides arbitrarily drawing a line at which a project stops being experimental. i will provide mine at the end of the post.

Quote:
In DAO a bunch of people invested in a risky asset that happened to run on top of Ethereum and Ethereum said, here's a bailout for your mess up. How can you not see the difference in these two scenarios?
i see the difference. my argument is that if an event devalues a currency (such as by buggy emission or hacking) enough, there is a threshold after which intervention by developers becomes acceptable if the life of project is at stake. the market decided it was over the threshold during the DAO hack and the developers proceeded with the hard fork.

Last edited by invictus-1; 06-18-2017 at 01:29 PM.
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Old 06-18-2017, 01:52 PM   #20630
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

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Originally Posted by invictus-1 View Post
i'll repeat my question:
if another bug emits 1 billion bitcoins into existence today, is a hard fork acceptable or are you content with having 1 billion coins more because it's no longer in toy experiment phase?
The bug would never occur today because once a certain market cap is reached and a coin moves beyond the toy experiment phase the responsible thing to do is move away from "move fast and break things" to "move slowly and test extensively". Bitcoin development and protocol changes happen very slowly for a reason. We'll see how the Ethereum switch to Proof of Stake and sharding goes. It's not at all clear either are even possible at this point.

What do you think the odds are of another Ethereum project with hundreds of millions in funding getting hacked is? Hint: 100% Compare this to the odds of billions of more BTC being created? Hint: 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001%
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Old 06-18-2017, 01:55 PM   #20631
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

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Originally Posted by andr3w321 View Post
The bug would never occur today because once a certain market cap is reached and a coin moves beyond the toy experiment phase the responsible thing to do is move away from "move fast and break things" to "move slowly and test extensively".
first, you have absolutely no way of knowing whether a bug will happen or not.
second, answer the question. third, what is that certain market cap when a coin moves beyond the toy experiment phase?
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Old 06-18-2017, 02:18 PM   #20632
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

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Originally Posted by invictus-1 View Post
first, you have absolutely no way of knowing whether a bug will happen or not.
I can assign a probability to it occurring which I did.

Quote:
second, answer the question
There is no point discussing something that is virtually guaranteed not to occur

Quote:
third, what is that certain market cap when a coin moves beyond the toy experiment phase?
There is no magic #. It is a sliding scale. Simple logic dictates that the smaller the market cap, the more likely a bug is to occur due to less people working on it and less testing occurring.

Look at the probabilities of each scenario playing out again today and you will see that the odds of another bitcoin fork due to a protocol bug are near zero and the the odds of ethereum fork due to a failed ETH contract are very high. Vitalik has even said he doesn't mind hard forking once a year. It is the opposite of a decentralized, immutable blockchain.
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Old 06-18-2017, 02:31 PM   #20633
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

gotcha. so the probability of a bug occurring in the future is close to 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% because at a certain point (as dictated by simple logic and a sliding scale) the cryptocurrency stops being a toy experiment. additionally, bugs only happen when a currency is at an arbitrary "small market cap" and as it approaches an arbitrary "big market cap," the probability of such bugs suddenly goes down to 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001%.

i think you need to study the history of bugs in software.

the probability of you knowing what you are talking about: 0%. the probability of you having lost this argument: 100%.
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Old 06-18-2017, 04:48 PM   #20634
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

Quote:
Originally Posted by invictus-1 View Post
it's really sad to see you do nothing but make one line ad hominems and act like a religious zealot yourself, TomCollins. please don't turn into a different flavour of toothsayer, i used to really enjoy your posts.


then the entry made to steal funds from the rightful owner of 184 billion bitcoins is also a reversal and therefore also suffers from the same criticism that you made of ethereum.
A bug in the base layer that was corrected by all participants is far different than a bailout by a central authority. It would be more similar if Bitcoin developers bailed out Mt. Gox.

That block still exists, it just was orphaned by users, just like many other blocks that get orphaned.
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Old 06-18-2017, 11:47 PM   #20635
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

Another difference between the 184 billion coin situation and the DAO is protocol vs app. If the protocol fks up, a fix is understandable. In the Dao case, we pushed in a fix at the protocol level to address an issue with an app that was built on top of the protocol. I'm not against it because a lot of people unknowingly put all their savings into the Dao thinking it was a 100% safe freeroll, and it would have sucked for those people to lose their money (whether deservingly or not). But the outcome is a created blemish that will remain for some time.
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Old 06-19-2017, 10:50 AM   #20636
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

Excuse my ignorance.

I have not used Bitcoin in a while, when I did I used Coinbase/Circle --> Blockchain.

What other wallets exist besides Coinbase where I can purchase bitcoin directly using my Visa? My issue is I need to purchase more than the $50 limit Coinbase is offering me.

Thanks in advance.
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Old 06-19-2017, 01:45 PM   #20637
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

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Originally Posted by T.o.R. View Post
Excuse my ignorance.

I have not used Bitcoin in a while, when I did I used Coinbase/Circle --> Blockchain.

What other wallets exist besides Coinbase where I can purchase bitcoin directly using my Visa? My issue is I need to purchase more than the $50 limit Coinbase is offering me.

Thanks in advance.
Why is your limit so low? Usually Coinbase will raise you limit gradually as you make more and more buys. Mine is now $10,000 per week. Have you sent in a copy of your driver's license?

Edit: I just realized you're talking about buying with a credit card. Why don't you just set up a wire transfer with a bank?
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Old 06-19-2017, 02:31 PM   #20638
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

blockchain.info allows credit card purchases (integrated seamlessly, but via different partners depending on country)
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Old 06-19-2017, 03:09 PM   #20639
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

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Originally Posted by andr3w321 View Post
Look at the probabilities of each scenario playing out again today and you will see that the odds of another bitcoin fork due to a protocol bug are near zero and the the odds of ethereum fork due to a failed ETH contract are very high. Vitalik has even said he doesn't mind hard forking once a year. It is the opposite of a decentralized, immutable blockchain.
I'd say the probability of bitcoin having another fork due to a protocol bug is indeed quite low, unless the code is overhauled in the near future. Unfortunately, there is a planned major overhaul of the code in the near future, so the probability of another bug related protocol fork occurring in the near future will rise by many, many orders of magnitude.
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Old 06-19-2017, 05:58 PM   #20640
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

DO NOT USE COINBASE ANYMORE. I have a withdrawal that has been lost and never received into my bank account but I have got one I did after the missing one. Coinbase is also impossible to get into contact with.
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Old 06-19-2017, 08:14 PM   #20641
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

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Originally Posted by invictus-1 View Post
first, you have absolutely no way of knowing whether a bug will happen or not.
second, answer the question. third, what is that certain market cap when a coin moves beyond the toy experiment phase?
Both projects are notably immature in never having defined when alpha/beta end and 'business as usual' begins.

You could argue that Satoshi's disappearance was this event for bitcoin; pretty sure that was (edit: not) a pre-defined event though.


Some newer projects are baking this BAU handover in now - a welcome nad healthy development imo.
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Old 06-20-2017, 02:15 AM   #20642
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

The market is getting ready for a upward boom. Bitcoin and xrp ripple are different enough they will succeed long. Ripple is so well organized and will succeed because people will trust the security in it. Just like how paypal is so successful because the security was so high.

I am also invested in Crypto PING ico which starts in 3 days. Not sure what color Gallardo I will get yet.
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Old 06-20-2017, 05:32 PM   #20643
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

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Not sure what color Gallardo I will get yet.
I hear they are bringing out a limited edition ripple logo shaped steering wheel in 2018, get on the list for that
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Old 06-20-2017, 06:37 PM   #20644
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

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Originally Posted by SaveTheWhales View Post
I hear they are bringing out a limited edition ripple logo shaped steering wheel in 2018, get on the list for that
Ripple has done well today starting yesterday. it hit a high of 33-34 before selling to .31 where its at now.
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Old 06-20-2017, 09:24 PM   #20645
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

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Originally Posted by plzd0nate View Post
DO NOT USE COINBASE ANYMORE. I have a withdrawal that has been lost and never received into my bank account but I have got one I did after the missing one. Coinbase is also impossible to get into contact with.
This sounds really fked up. I recommend trying to reach out to them on twitter or put them on blast on reddit (maybe on /r/ethtrader). They have support reps constantly reading the crypto subreddits.
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Old 06-21-2017, 01:11 AM   #20646
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

Quote:
Originally Posted by plzd0nate View Post
DO NOT USE COINBASE ANYMORE. I have a withdrawal that has been lost and never received into my bank account but I have got one I did after the missing one. Coinbase is also impossible to get into contact with.
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Old 06-21-2017, 10:58 AM   #20647
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

TomCollins-
Thanks for your continued posting.

Do you think a Turing complete crytpo is useful? Or would it be better to have a compute layer over bitcoin (or something else entirely)?
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Old 06-21-2017, 02:15 PM   #20648
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

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TomCollins-
Thanks for your continued posting.

Do you think a Turing complete crytpo is useful? Or would it be better to have a compute layer over bitcoin (or something else entirely)?
I am yet to see a single use case where it's good. A far better model is where only the people involved can prove the computation is done, and you publish a proof it was done. Keep the bloat off the chain.

As we can see toady, Ethereum cannot even keep up with selling Ponzicoins, all with ZERO dapps at scale in use.
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Old 06-21-2017, 02:16 PM   #20649
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

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Originally Posted by Rant View Post
Do you think a Turing complete crytpo is useful? Or would it be better to have a compute layer over bitcoin (or something else entirely)?
Greg Maxwell addressed this a while back, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?to...27#msg14601127

Quote:
tldr;

All of these radical improvements in scalablity, privacy, and flexibility show up when you realize that "turing complete" is the wrong tool, that what our systems do is verification, not computation. This cognitive error confers no advantage, outside of marketing to people with a fuzzy idea of what smart contracts might be good for in the first place.
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Old 06-21-2017, 08:49 PM   #20650
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

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Originally Posted by TomCollins View Post
I am yet to see a single use case where it's good. A far better model is where only the people involved can prove the computation is done, and you publish a proof it was done. Keep the bloat off the chain.

As we can see toady, Ethereum cannot even keep up with selling Ponzicoins, all with ZERO dapps at scale in use.
Hypothetically, let's say Vlad + Vitalik figure sharding and PoS out and it works brilliantly with no attack vectors possible. Where does that put Ethereum in comparison to Bitcoin in your opinion as a settlement layer?
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