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Old 03-19-2017, 03:00 AM   #19751
aggo
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

Quote:
Originally Posted by vikthunder View Post
Schnorr's signature aggregation and MAST only change and/or compress the signature data (i.e. the witness data) that's already not counted against the 1MB cap once SegWit is activated. Therefore, while they improve the overall efficiency of the system, they won't actually enable people to place more transactions in a single block. So unless they are coupled with a hard fork, they won't actually help with scaling.

For clarity let's make the following estimates:
-Currently, every 10 minutes about 2.2K transactions are sent using 1 MB of data
-With SegWit, every 10 minutes about 4K transactions will be sent using ~2.0 MB of data
-With Schnorr's, every 10 minutes about 4K transactions will be sent using ~1.5 MB of data

so that people are understanding here, viks calculation he means @ 1mb blocksize under proposed segwit softfork that consumes 2mb of data.

Depending on how you calculate the average tx size and whether or not everyone moves to segwit txs, you can get 4k txs @ 1mb blocksize as an "average" if "everyone moves to segwit txs"

Idk how to calculate schnorrs discount-- i'm not aware of any research on that



https://tradeblock.com/blog/analysis...n-size-trends/
&
http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/a/46379

napkin math:
basically avg bitcoin tx size is ~600 bytes on today's network.
if everyone went to p2sh tx & segwit, average size that counts against 1mb block is prolly 250-300bytes

1e6/275= 3.6k txs

3.6k is prolly lower bound because calculating txs is dependent on input - ouput of where bitcoins are moving.

edit: its also a very good assumption that most lite wallets would move to p2sh txs in a segwit softfork.

Last edited by aggo; 03-19-2017 at 03:25 AM.
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Old 03-19-2017, 04:22 AM   #19752
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

Majority of blocks last 24h now signalling for big blocks.
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Old 03-19-2017, 10:41 AM   #19753
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

Quote:
Originally Posted by heltok View Post
Majority of blocks last 24h now that are signaling anything are signalling for big blocks.
ftfy

BU can go ahead and fork with its "majority" though.
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Old 03-19-2017, 11:25 AM   #19754
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

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Originally Posted by Zenzor View Post
ftfy

BU can go ahead and fork with its "majority" though.
Not sure what you are implying. Of the blocks which were signalling it was more like 75%.

BU intends to hardfork. I think it is unlikely that the minority chain will survive without hard-forking a difficulty adjustment. We will see what happens.
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Old 03-19-2017, 11:45 AM   #19755
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

No vote is effectively a vote for the status quo, they are running core.

BU has plurality hash of signalers, but not a majority of total network hash (due to the no-votes mining Core). If BU forks now, they would not be the majority chain.

Happy to be proven wrong though, but that's my understanding of what i see here https://coin.dance/blocks#thisweek
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Old 03-19-2017, 07:02 PM   #19756
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenzor View Post
No vote is effectively a vote for the status quo, they are running core.
True. But it also not signalling a preferens in the hardfork vs segwit debate, which was what we were discussing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenzor View Post
BU has plurality hash of signalers, but not a majority of total network hash (due to the no-votes mining Core). If BU forks now, they would not be the majority chain.
There are uncertainties here as mining is stochastic. Here is good article on it:
https://medium.com/@g.andrew.stone/e...a31#.8kcux8cgl
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Old 03-19-2017, 10:57 PM   #19757
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

split is dumb unless they clearly name it two different things--gl with the public having them figure out which bitcoin is which. Sending wrong one gonna happen a lot if it's not clear.

Seems like a flipping disaster for the coin to me for no good reason other than nerds gonna nerd.
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Old 03-20-2017, 12:07 AM   #19758
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

Average coin days destroyed

^ watch that.
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Old 03-20-2017, 02:02 AM   #19759
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

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Originally Posted by wheatrich View Post
split is dumb unless they clearly name it two different things--gl with the public having them figure out which bitcoin is which. Sending wrong one gonna happen a lot if it's not clear.

Seems like a flipping disaster for the coin to me for no good reason other than nerds gonna nerd.
I was there during the ETH/ETC split and it was not terrible. In hindsight I am glad it happened, mainly because it gave the community courage to push for protocol upgrades more aggressively.

I think it will be a bit different for Bitcoin because:
1. Longer time for difficulty adjustment will make it very hard for minority chain to survive
2. Harder to make a split contract
3. Less computer savvy user base

But still as a holder I am for doing it. Reason: I think not doing it is also very risky.
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Old 03-20-2017, 02:34 AM   #19760
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

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Originally Posted by heltok View Post
I was there during the ETH/ETC split and it was not terrible. In hindsight I am glad it happened, mainly because it gave the community courage to push for protocol upgrades more aggressively.

I think it will be a bit different for Bitcoin because:
1. Longer time for difficulty adjustment will make it very hard for minority chain to survive

2. Harder to make a split contract
3. Less computer savvy user base

But still as a holder I am for doing it. Reason: I think not doing it is also very risky.
Core is not stupid and they know that they will eventually lose the main chain if the BU threat is real and EC is actually implemented. Core will have to cede the main chain under that scenario.


But the real question is does Core HF before EC even kicks in.

think about that....
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Old 03-20-2017, 02:58 AM   #19761
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

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Originally Posted by aggo View Post
But the real question is does Core HF before EC even kicks in.
We are in this mess because they didn't want to hardfork a 20, 8, 4 or 2 MB blocksize limit adjustment. And now they want to hardfork from current PoW to something else. This is a much harder hardfork than just changing one variable. And it will not be easy to get consensus for that either. And one thing is sure, the miners of today will not be super happy with it. But maybe Core can pull it off, if they try to I might have to invest in popcorn companies...
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Old 03-20-2017, 06:37 AM   #19762
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Old 03-20-2017, 01:26 PM   #19763
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

Coinbase is all ****ed up. Apparently many people are showing 0 balances in USD where they have money. My buddy just texted me a pic, he has 20k worth of BTC that's not his. I snap got my few coins off of there. It also let me withdraw which is a bit concerning, I was thinking I'd get a message saying something like "withdraws are temporarily disabled as we fix this ****"
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Old 03-20-2017, 11:53 PM   #19764
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

Yikes! And I was just going to buy a dozen coins from Coinbase - guess I'll wait until the prices crash further. :-)
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Old 03-21-2017, 05:26 PM   #19765
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

Jihan just basically admitted that he is obstructing Segwit because he is concerned that second layer solutions will reduce transaction fees...

So basically he wants to perma block second layer solutions? And people still support BU / ceding power to the miners
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Old 03-21-2017, 05:37 PM   #19766
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

The bitcoin economy is comprised of many actors acting in their own self-interests, which in theory collectively serve to make bitcoin more robust.

Miners are doing what is best for miners, which may in fact be what is best for bitcoin.
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Old 03-21-2017, 08:10 PM   #19767
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

Best for Bitcoin you say?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenzor View Post
Maybe it shouldn't be amateur hour over at BU headquarters

https://twitter.com/SatoshiLite/stat...88344371568640

Honestly, I still can't believe anyone who holds Bitcoin could support handing a $20bln network over to the BU devs.

Edit: Just gonna go ahead and leave this here for future laughs



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Old 03-21-2017, 10:21 PM   #19768
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

Update:



Sorry. Just want to make my future "told you so" more apparent to all BU supporters.
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Old 03-21-2017, 11:29 PM   #19769
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

Quote:
Originally Posted by onemoretimes View Post
Coinbase is all ****ed up. Apparently many people are showing 0 balances in USD where they have money. My buddy just texted me a pic, he has 20k worth of BTC that's not his. I snap got my few coins off of there. It also let me withdraw which is a bit concerning, I was thinking I'd get a message saying something like "withdraws are temporarily disabled as we fix this ****"
you really shouldnt ever leave any btc on coinbase. since they have the private key you dont own the btc all you really have is a promise from them to pay you. if coinbase gets hacked or they decide to lock your account for "illegal gambling" - you are screwed.
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Old 03-21-2017, 11:50 PM   #19770
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

Quote:
Originally Posted by bucktotal View Post
The bitcoin economy is comprised of many actors acting in their own self-interests, which in theory collectively serve to make bitcoin more robust.

Miners are doing what is best for miners, which may in fact be what is best for bitcoin.
Lol. Giving 5 mining pool operators the full control over the blocksize is good for bitcoin? I understand why miners want BU/EC as it gives them more power. I just don't understand some "users" who did some proper research into how EC works (MG/EB/AD parameters etc.) can seriously think BU is better. Bigger blocks fan? Great! But EC? Lol. Either indoctrinated or unaware of how it works. Not even talking about all the bugs, lack of peer reviewing, lack of testing.. and now they are releasing updates closed-source.... lmao.

If miners go through with this, they might be surprised when they realize they are mining a worthless altcoin.

Last edited by NLNico; 03-22-2017 at 12:18 AM.
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Old 03-22-2017, 12:13 AM   #19771
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

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Originally Posted by rtd353 View Post
you really shouldnt ever leave any btc on coinbase. since they have the private key you dont own the btc all you really have is a promise from them to pay you. if coinbase gets hacked or they decide to lock your account for "illegal gambling" - you are screwed.
I understand, it's just there was a sick arb opportunity the other day I wanted to take advantage of and when it was done, I could only withdraw the 10k max for the day. I thought the opportunity might arise again so I didn't want to use my 10k max for the day because I have to shift fund between sites to take full advantage of it. Anyway, I requested for a max withdrawal limit increase a week ago and haven't heard back. They even have a "increase limits" button that says it will be reviewed in 3 days. It's scary how incompetent coinbase is. It's always felt like one guys running it. Just a matter of time until they **** up or someone robs them for the biggest heist in history.
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Old 03-22-2017, 12:34 AM   #19772
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

Right on queue. Jihan Wu temper tantrum



Quote:
Originally Posted by NLNico View Post
Lol. Giving 5 mining pool operators the full control over the blocksize is good for bitcoin? I understand why miners want BU/EC as it gives them more power. I just don't understand some "users" who did some proper research into how EC works (MG/EB/AD parameters etc.) can seriously think BU is better. Bigger blocks fan? Great! But EC? Lol. Either indoctrinated or unaware of how it works. Not even talking about all the bugs, lack of peer reviewing, lack of testing.. and now they are releasing updates closed-source.... lmao.

If miners go through with this, they might be surprised when they realize they are mining a worthless altcoin.
Haven't you heard? An existentially dangerous solution is better than waiting for better alternatives or an excellent solution that is available now.... for reasons
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Old 03-22-2017, 08:17 PM   #19773
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

Was at Sams Club today. Upon checkout, the cashier had me download a "Scan and go" app that allows you to scan your items with your phone, pay with your phone and skip the whole cashier line. Pretty genius idea, actually pretty simple, not sure why it wasn't done before. I'm guessing this will become widespread, and if it does, I wonder if many retail stores will start to accept digital currency down the road. Would only make sense.

The funny part was I said I would just download it later.. she said no download it now so she can get credit for it today, she needs to get 8 people. I said, you just got your 8th and now you'll lose your job. She laughed and said she didn't wanna work anymore anyway.
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Old 03-23-2017, 08:46 AM   #19774
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/com...1000_trillion/

https://lbc.cryptoguru.org/trophies

I don't get how nobody ever thinks this is a problem. I only roll with it because all these "smart" people say the number is plenty large. But if some group just ****ing around managed to find 2 keys with funds on them, what is a large amount of people capable of doing in 10 years?

There should be no way to brute force this ****. Saying it takes so and so a certain amount of time to get a key, and that's plenty just doesn't cut it.

They are finding a private key about once a month (most with no funds).. WTF!
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Old 03-23-2017, 09:25 AM   #19775
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

Quote:
Originally Posted by onemoretimes View Post
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/com...1000_trillion/

https://lbc.cryptoguru.org/trophies

I don't get how nobody ever thinks this is a problem. I only roll with it because all these "smart" people say the number is plenty large. But if some group just ****ing around managed to find 2 keys with funds on them, what is a large amount of people capable of doing in 10 years?

There should be no way to brute force this ****. Saying it takes so and so a certain amount of time to get a key, and that's plenty just doesn't cut it.

They are finding a private key about once a month (most with no funds).. WTF!
Sensationalist bull****. They are just doing a boring sequential brute-force, finding some addresses with low entropy private keys. The collisions they find are either from people just having fun and sending small amounts to things like the address corresponding to some arbitrary private key (e.g. "1") or faulty wallet software creating low entropy private keys (which has definitely happened in the past). It has no impact on the security of properly created key pairs.

Also, the author(s) seem(s) completely clueless about basic crypto, mathematics, and logic.
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