Discuss the legitimacy here.

I don't think Adam Back believes tether is a scam:

The NY Attorney General disagrees:

Bitfinex and Tether Deceived Clients and Market by Overstating Reserves, Hiding Approximately $850 Million in Losses Around the Globe

Bitfinex and Tether recklessly and unlawfully covered-up massive financial losses to keep their scheme going and protect their bottom lines,” said Attorney General James. “Tether’s claims that its virtual currency was fully backed by U.S. dollars at all times was a lie.

Source: https://ag.ny.gov/press-release/2021...finexs-illegal

Details:
In 2018, Tether secretly moved 50% of their reserves into Bitfinex to bail out their own personal (and undisclosed) interest in that company. The day before doing so they parked those reserves for 24 hours in a bank account to induce a third-party to falsely vouch for 100% of their reserves. If it wasn't for the trader-based bailout of Bitfinex in 2019 Tether would've collapsed.

From: NY Attorney General Office: Settlement with Tether and Bitfinex:

42. On November 1, 2018, Tether made a public statement announcing that it had established a relationship with Deltec Bank & Trust Limited, headquartered in the Bahamas. In that announcement, Tether represented that USDT in the market are fully backed by US dollars that are safely deposited in our bank accounts. The announcement also linked to a document on Deltec letterhead and addressed to Tether Limited, dated November 1, 2018, which stated

Dear Sirs: We hereby confirm that, at the close of business on October 31, 2018, the portfolio cash value of your account with our bank was US$1,831,322,828.

43. The next day, November 2, 2018, Tether made the first of five transfers ultimately totaling $475 million from its bank account at Deltec Bank to Bitfinex's account at Deltec Bank. At the same time, a corresponding transfer was made from Bitfinex's account at Crypto Capital to Tether’s account at Crypto Capital via ledger entry Bitfinex also "purchased" 150 million tethers by transferring $150 million in funds held at Bitfinex’s Crypto Capital account to Tether's account at Crypto Capital. These transfers were not disclosed.

44. And so, as of November 2, 2018, tethers were again no longer backed 1-to-1 by U.S. dollars in a Tether bank account, because a substantial portion of the backing in the Deltec account had been transferred to Bitfinex to make up for the funds taken by Crypto Capital, while the corresponding funds transferred from Bitfinex's Crypto Capital account to Tether's Crypto Capital account were impaired by Crypto Capital's actions

45. Tether's misrepresentation would continue until late February 2019, at which time Tether updated its website to note that "[e]very tether is always 100% backed by our reserves, which include traditional currency and cash equivalents and, from time to time, may include other assets and receivables from loans made by Tether to third parties, which may include affiliated entities (collectively, "reserves”. Tether did not announce that it had changed its disclosure, and indeed there were no media reports about the change until several weeks later on March 14, 2019.

48. As set forth in further detail in the OAG's application for relief pursuant to Section 354 of the Martin Act, in late 2018 Bitfinex and Tether began to negotiate a line of credit transaction that would allow Bitfinex to further draw upon the Tether reserves. Ultimately, the line of credit transaction closed at the end of March 2019, allowing Bitfinex to draw up to $900 million from the Tether reserves. The $625 million that had been previously transferred from the Tether account in November 2018 was incorporated into the line of credit. Bitfinex collateralized the line of credit with shares of its parent company Digfinex.

49. At no time did Bitfinex or Tether disclose to the market that Tether had transferred at least $625 million to Bitfinex, or that Bitfinex had experienced critical liquidity issues because of loss of approximately $850 million to Crypto Capital.

Bitcoiners are libertarians. they are anti state, not pro state.

All I'm saying is all of the people that are most knowledgeable about bitcoin are very supportive of tether and they realize that eventually the US government might shut it down.

There is no one getting scammed by tether because its primarily held by private investors that are well aware of the shadow banking details.

You're framing it as a libertarian vs state and regulated vs unregulated banking but the NY Attorney General report is about Tether lying about its reserves to its own private holders and doing so to protect its principals' interest in an unrelated company, which included inducing third-parties to unknowingly vouch for the reserves by shuffling funds around to give the appearance they were available when they weren't. This is called fraud.

You think those guys in that picture are lying to adam back about their shadawbanking? And you think Adam Bank isn't aware all of the stuff you are pointing at?

Everyone in bitcoin believes tether should lie about its reserves.

Tether lied to its own holders, not regulators. They took half of their holders' reserves and used it to bail out an unrelated company the executives of Tether had a large, personal financial interest in. Nowhere in Tether's charter did it state that the reserves would be used to bail out the financial interests of its executives.

Your claim that tether holders wanted to be lied to about their reserves not being used for the private financial interests of Tether's executives is absurd and completely unsubstantiated.

You think Adam Back didn't know what was going on with the Shadow banking? No one is denying what you are pointing at. There is no archetype of customer that you are alluding to. Adam Back knew exactly what was going on, look at him, he's on a boating vacation with the tether providers!

This isn't shadow banking. It's stealing customer funds and using them for the executive's own interests. The injured parties were Tether holders at the time, not some wealthy guy on a yacht today. Tether holders had no potential upside from the misallocation of their funds - only loss. And that's exactly what happened when Tether required a bailout from investors after the money lent to Bitfinex couldn't be repaid.

Let me guess - Tether holders wanted their reserves to be misallocated, lied to about it, have their funds lost, then have the company they trusted with their custodial holdings to require a bailout.

I don't know if you noticed, but anyone who is anyone in bitcoin doesn't care. Now that, they doesn't mean anything. But just to note, any of the bitcoin conference speakers, guests on mccorkmacks show, shinobi and the block digest gang, all of the active devs. I don't really know who else to name that is knowledgeable on bitcoin. Truthcoin, voskuil, carvello, carter. Szabo, elain ou. Aaron van wirdum and kyle torpey, the two top new sources...

I really don't know who else to name.

But all of them know all of this information you are putting forth, and none of them think tether is a scam or causing their customers harm.

Like I said, tether is well held by all these people. It is a privately issued currency for a private banking group. The people you allude to don't exist.

Do you have examples of any credible people that care? I think you might misunderstand what tether is.

What does the opinion of BTC holders have to do with whether Tether committed fraud againt its own holders? If my house is robbed does it matter to me that my neighbor doesn't have a problem with it? Will the police say, yeah you were robbed but your neighbor is fine with it so why the bother?

Well it should leave you wondering why all bitcoiners are so blind to this fraud?

But also like, we are poker players right? lets say you have a gun to your head, and you have to pick someone quick....who would you guess is providing the backing/shadow banking for tether? Who do you think tether's primary customer is? Of course you don't 'KNOW' but lets say if you don't guess and guess right then you die.

You know back is one of the richest persons on the planet right?

Like if you are going to ignore the plot in front of you and pretend to be blind...? come on. Tether is team blue. Team blue is pro bitcoin. anti-tether is anti-bitcoin.

Why do keep talking about bitcoiners? The victims of the fraud were Tether holders. They almost lost half their reserves and would have if it weren't for the subsequent bailout.

You're pointing to wealthy people who have a vested interest in others having confidence in Tether today and somehow taking that to mean Tether didn't commit fraud in 2018. What happens the next time Tether executives get in trouble and raid their holders' reserves? Will you show them a photo of a rich guy on a yacht?

Tether isn't a tool used by randoms you are alluding to. It's a tool for adam back and the private investors that create and maintain it. You are alluding to investors that don't exist.

Bitcoiners create and maintain tether.

Tether holders didn't exist? Who provided the billions of dollars that were exchanged for Tethers? They weren't investing in Tether - they were depositing their money into it as a custodial holding, using Tether's guarantee to secure those holdings with reserves rather than using it for the executive's own private bailouts.

Adam back and his gang of shadow bankers and private bitcoiner investors. This is common knowledge. Did you not see the picture?!

So all of Tether's holdings in 2018 were funded by a few Tether investors and not its thousands or millions of holders? Where did the billions of dollars the holders paid into Tether go to then?

Wait, what do you think tether is used for?!

It's used to buy and sell other cryptocurrencies, and as a temporary store of value in between doing so. It's the on and off ramp to the crypto ecosystem. To get onto the ramp you have to supply real money in exchange for Tether. You trade your Tether back for real money on the off-ramp.

Do we have a reference to these numbers?

Right. No. Tether plays a special role in that it creates a signal for the honestly of bitcoin's price across exchanges that accept it. This is helpful for the issuing team (team blue). It gives them an advantage over team red that can only be nullified by also holding tethers etc.

Its for the private investors. You as a public customer...no don't use it for an on/off ramp, tether might choke you off at key times. Its not supposed to be used for that. You are misunderstanding what tether is.

Tether is a tool for the private investors that are partnered in creating it. They are the whales in the crypto/bitcoin industry. They are against 'wall street' kinda thing (aka team red).

Do you have reference Tether had only a few wealthy holders in 2018? The most absurd claim requires the most amount of evidence.

Tether has been used as the currency to buy and sell crypto since its inception. If you're claiming only a few people bought and sold crypto using Tether in 2018 then BTC's price is more manipulated than previously believed.

LOL. You're living in an alternate reality.

From exchanges and digital wallet apps to decentralised finance (DeFi) protocols and payment services, Tether tokens offer a smart alternative to fiat gateways.

Source: https://tether.to/en/why-tether/

It's you that is pointing out that tether's details are not transparent. I'm just conveying to you what is commonly held in the community. Again, that doesn't make me correct. But its true that its commonly held. Adam back is not on a vacation with bitfinex and tether owners at the shock of the bitcoin community. These are people that are well regarded in the bitcoin community.

You are claiming tether is obviously immoral because its obviously defrauding people.

By law its accused of fraud. Adam back doesn't think so. You can tell by the picture and endorsement. Adam will agree that law has its opinion, but he will not agree tether has acted immorally.

Its not proof by authority. I'm telling you that you are in the midst of libertarians, trying to argue to them something is bad because the state says it is. These libertarians are the ones that created and uphold tether. look closer at the picture.

I'm well aware what their website claims, both me and YOU are pointing out that tether doesn't always do what they claim they will do. DON'T use it for a gateway to fiat, it won't always be available. They don't have control over that.