Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > Other Topics > Business, Finance, and Investing

Notices

Business, Finance, and Investing Making money, investing in markets, and running businesses

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-12-2009, 02:10 PM   #1
veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: ENN WHYY SEE
Posts: 2,160
Is America still the most capitalist country?

So I'm reading a great book by Ayn Rand called "capitalism." Before you flame (even though I am a HUGE Rand fan) this book is a collection of articles written about capitalism and scratches the service of objectivism and its not all straight from Rand's mouth. There is a bunch of articles by Rand, Alan Greenspan and some others. Its a great book, quick read due to it being separated by articles.

Anyway, they talk a lot of government intervention, certain laws made in America, what America was originally founded on, and where it may be heading. Even though most of the articles are from the 60s they still make sense in today's context.

So, is America still the most capitalist country? Why or why not?
burkoboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2009, 02:21 PM   #2
old hand
 
r3vbr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Porto Alegre - Brasil
Posts: 1,984
Re: Is America still the most capitalist country?

Hong Kong isnt a country but the region is managed in a much more capitalist way (no import duties, total free trade, little labour laws) although they have a lot of urban planning and taxes on land.

Australia I think is more capitalist, at least going that way, although the state still manages a larger % of gdp than America.

One of the states with smallest % gdp is amazingly China, I remember seeing that they had something like 10% of gdp for the state, while USA was around 30%.

Some small countries are probably the most... i dunno much about cayman islands, luxemburg, carribean nations, etc... but there are pretty free places out there.

Chile is good also, the only place on earth with a long term sustainable pension system (not based on benefits but on contribution) and funds are not treated like a ponzi scheme like everywhere else
r3vbr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2009, 02:27 PM   #3
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Brons's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 6,540
Re: Is America still the most capitalist country?

If you take into account small city states the USA was probably never the most capitalist country. But you need to define what the scale of capitalism is before you can really ask such a question.
Brons is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2009, 02:43 PM   #4
adept
 
skindog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 918
Re: Is America still the most capitalist country?

OT: I still can't understand how Greenspan tries to pass himself off as an objectivist when he was an integral part of a system that helped the 'looters', as Rand would label them.
Can someone explain it to me?
skindog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2009, 03:04 PM   #5
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
kyleb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Seattle
Posts: 38,814
Re: Is America still the most capitalist country?

If you want to consider first world and developed countries only (excluding Hong Kong, for example), then Switzerland is probably the best choice.
kyleb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2009, 04:30 PM   #6
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
stinkypete's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: somewhere
Posts: 12,797
Re: Is America still the most capitalist country?

Quote:
Originally Posted by burkoboy View Post
scratches the service of objectivism
nice
stinkypete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2009, 05:50 PM   #7
veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: ENN WHYY SEE
Posts: 2,160
Re: Is America still the most capitalist country?

Quote:
Originally Posted by skindog View Post
OT: I still can't understand how Greenspan tries to pass himself off as an objectivist when he was an integral part of a system that helped the 'looters', as Rand would label them.
Can someone explain it to me?
I'm still kind of asking myself the same thing. He has some pretty strong feelings and makes some strong statements in some of these articles.

I guess his thinking is that the Fed is not "actually" a governmental body.

I don't think you go to these secret meetings with Rand, write articles, and then just 'forget' what you've believed half your life to become the Fed President.

The better question may be since America is more of a mixed economy, how he even got to be the Fed president when his thoughts and feelings on the economy were published in writing.
burkoboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2009, 06:02 PM   #8
veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: ENN WHYY SEE
Posts: 2,160
Re: Is America still the most capitalist country?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kyleb View Post
If you want to consider first world and developed countries only (excluding Hong Kong, for example), then Switzerland is probably the best choice.
This is what I was thinking, but aren't the taxes pretty high?

They are pretty economically advanced and intelligent but I always thought they had more of a collectivist grounding like most of Europe.
burkoboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2009, 07:16 PM   #9
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
TomCollins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: The Blockchain
Posts: 42,392
Re: Is America still the most capitalist country?

Quote:
Originally Posted by skindog View Post
OT: I still can't understand how Greenspan tries to pass himself off as an objectivist when he was an integral part of a system that helped the 'looters', as Rand would label them.
Can someone explain it to me?
Anakin Skywalker used to be a Jedi.
TomCollins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2009, 08:24 PM   #10
Econ Forum Czar
 
J.R.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Moloch the incomprehensible prison
Posts: 8,292
Re: Is America still the most capitalist country?

A perspective:

http://www.efnasia.org/index.php?opt...ation&Itemid=6

http://www.freetheworld.com/2009/rep...9_EFW-intl.pdf

Quote:
In this year’s main index, Hong Kong retains the highest rating for economic freedom, 8.97 out of 10. The other top scorers are: Singapore (8.66), New Zealand (8.30), Switzerland (8.19), Chile (8.14), United States (8.06), Ireland (7.98), Canada (7.91), Australia tied with the United Kingdom (7.89), and Estonia (7.81).

The rankings and scores of other large economies include Taiwan, tied for 16th with Finland and Mauritius (7.62); Germany, 27 (7.50); Japan, 28 (7.46); South Korea, 32 (7.45); France 33 (7.43); Spain, 39 (7.32); Sweden, 40 (7.28); Italy, 61 (6.95); Mexico, 68 (6.85); China, 82 (6.54); Russia, 83 (6.50); India, 86 (6.45); Argentina, 105 (6.10); and Brazil, 111 (6.00).

Zimbabwe once again has the lowest level of economic freedom followed by Myanmar, Angola, and Venezuela.
http://www.fraserinstitute.org/resea...ions/6905.aspx
J.R. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2009, 08:26 PM   #11
Econ Forum Czar
 
J.R.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Moloch the incomprehensible prison
Posts: 8,292
Re: Is America still the most capitalist country?

another perspective:

http://www.heritage.org/Index/
http://www.heritage.org/Index/Ranking.aspx
Quote:
1 Hong Kong 90.0 +0.3
2 Singapore 87.1 -0.2
3 Australia 82.6 +0.4
4 Ireland 82.2 -0.3
5 New Zealand 82.0 +1.2
6 United States 80.7 -0.3
7 Canada 80.5 +0.3
8 Denmark 80.0 +0.4
9 Switzerland 79.4 -0.1
10 United Kingdom 79.0 -0.5
http://www.heritage.org/Index/pdf/Index09_ExecSum.pdf
J.R. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2009, 10:14 PM   #12
veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: ENN WHYY SEE
Posts: 2,160
Re: Is America still the most capitalist country?

Now, onto the question of which of those countries has the highest earning potential for US citizens?

It seems its pretty clear that just staying in the United States is the best decision for now. Still relatively high on the list, same spoken language, knowledge of business, most went to school here.
burkoboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2009, 01:42 AM   #13
veteran
 
Mrmusicrecorder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Downtown
Posts: 3,362
Smile Re: Is America still the most capitalist country?

Quote:
Originally Posted by skindog View Post
OT: I still can't understand how Greenspan tries to pass himself off as an objectivist when he was an integral part of a system that helped the 'looters', as Rand would label them.
Can someone explain it to me?
Greenspan loved Rand (a prized student/follower) and Austrian economics (even argued for a gold standard) until he got a job at the federal reserve system... I believe he came under some pressure there to do what he was told.


To answer the OP... Hong Kong
Mrmusicrecorder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2009, 12:19 PM   #14
adept
 
skindog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 918
Re: Is America still the most capitalist country?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrmusicrecorder View Post
Greenspan loved Rand (a prized student/follower) and Austrian economics (even argued for a gold standard) until he got a job at the federal reserve system... I believe he came under some pressure there to do what he was told.
Whose bread I eat his song I sing, eh?
skindog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2009, 04:36 PM   #15
Pooh-Bah
 
Tien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Team Sepp Blatter
Posts: 5,580
Re: Is America still the most capitalist country?

Skindog. How did you go pick that avatar?


I used to have a chihuahua and find your avatar hilarious.



Yes America is still the most capitalistic country. It is still by far the largest buyer of foreign assets.
Tien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2009, 04:38 PM   #16
Pooh-Bah
 
Tien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Team Sepp Blatter
Posts: 5,580
Re: Is America still the most capitalist country?

Quote:
Originally Posted by skindog View Post
OT: I still can't understand how Greenspan tries to pass himself off as an objectivist when he was an integral part of a system that helped the 'looters', as Rand would label them.
Can someone explain it to me?

Greenspan was also involved (supported the hedge funds) in the derivatives mess in the late 90s as well as the subprime mortgage mess.

I don't hold too much value to his opinions.
Tien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2009, 04:20 AM   #17
veteran
 
Mrmusicrecorder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Downtown
Posts: 3,362
Spade Re: Is America still the most capitalist country?

Quote:
Originally Posted by skindog View Post
Whose bread I eat his song I sing, eh?
That seems to be the timing of his "change of heart", he didn't forget everything he knew in 1987, he got recruited. The Chairman of the Fed answers to the stockholders. This explains the dr jekyll and mr hyde of the greenspan.


or thug life... wut wut!
Mrmusicrecorder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2009, 02:50 PM   #18
journeyman
 
kwon234ioud's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: 6 Feet Under
Posts: 252
Re: Is America still the most capitalist country?

How do you define degrees of capitalism? In terms of lack of government intervention?

God I hate Ayn Rand even though I get that she was shafted by the USSR. Still...

Capitalism cannot work without government intervention. How much easier would it be able to trade in an anarchy where the strong rules the weak? Government is never a producer of good or value. That is true. Also excessive intervention can distort market forces and favor certain coalitions at the expense of the many. Also true.

On the other hand, lack of government intervention can lead to instability as people are free to take outsized risks without any regard to others. There are a lot of actions that cause negative externalities. These cannot be solved by free market forces.

I think you should read other people's perspectives too before equate captialism=good. The best way to frame the question would be:

What sort of system would provide the best incentive to motivate people to work hard without moral hazard that would ensure the welfare of America? Does that system still exist in America?

Right now I think captialism is destroying this country. That sounds harsh. I think there were improper incentives in the financial markets which contributed to the credit crisis which is a no brainer. I also think America has lost a large portion of its wealth in the middle classes because we are no longer producing anything. Those lost production capabilities aren't adequately replaced with the new information technology. Just because we have a large pool of Phds doesn't mean other countries are going to outsource intelligence to us.

The curious thing is China is undergoing something like the Industrial Revolution in Britain. Those workers are going to be the new dominant middle class consumers that we used to be. And chances are, a lot of our PhDs will in the future configure products and goods to serve their taste.

People dismissively say getting China to consume is the easiest way out our recession. It's the not easiest way out. It's the only way. We need to provide a service or a good in exchange for their goods instead of just debt.

GM and FORD is selling a lot of assets. No one wants them. The only companies buying them right now is in China because they are the only ones with money. 5 to 10 years from now people will be talking about how dumb GM and Ford was to give up their divisions. In fact, the wave of the future for car companies will be to get bigger and consolidate into mega companies instead of slimming down. Why? Once the large reservoir of saving in China starts to flow out, bigger companies will make the most money.

SUVs and Hummers are going to be the new status symbol in China. Of course, CEOs of such lucky companies are going to look like geniuses and be renowned for their innovation in improving logistics or marketing which any one with half a brain can manage.

The point is in the future, America won't be a consuming country. We'll probably be more like Germany or Japan. Production will be a matter state sovereignty. Right now a lot of the conglomerates are "international". They are just American companies with a strong dominance of foreign markets. But these companies will have to fight for market share in the US and other markets besides China. There will be an emphasis for exporting and producing more for the consumer economy in Asia and being competitive in the international markets. Lots of competition across markets will drive down wages but it'll also lower prices for goods.

But the difference in the future will be the nationalistic tone of the atmosphere. I feel that inclusion and xenophobia is going to become more prevalent. Nationalism will probably be on the rise with increased competition among national companies. This will inevitably set the stage for a world war through the peripheries. Two places for war will be near India or Russia.

Sounds like I am on acid, lol. Friction is already developing with US and China. We haven't been challenged in other countries markets as vigorously because of our sheer size. Coke is in every country. McDonalds is in every country. China is going to be potentially the largest consumer market in the history of the world. Coke and burgers can be easily replicated. Chinese national companies could successfully challenge American companies, and they could challenge American presence else where if they gain enough resources.
kwon234ioud is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2009, 03:43 PM   #19
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
kyleb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Seattle
Posts: 38,814
Re: Is America still the most capitalist country?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kwon234ioud View Post
Capitalism cannot work without government intervention.
What does this even mean? Yes, Capitalism "works" without "government" involvement. You use these words but haven't defined "work" or "government" then type a giant wall of text which no one is going to read.

You don't get to define the given subjective variables with your opinion then argue against/for it and claim victory.
kyleb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2009, 03:48 PM   #20
adept
 
skindog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 918
Re: Is America still the most capitalist country?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kwon234ioud View Post
How do you define degrees of capitalism? In terms of lack of government intervention?

...
With this post, either you are one of the smartest geniuses in the world, or a fool. There is no in between with the claims you're throwing around.
skindog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2009, 03:58 AM   #21
veteran
 
Mrmusicrecorder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Downtown
Posts: 3,362
Lightbulb Re: Is America still the most capitalist country?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kwon234ioud View Post
How do you define degrees of capitalism? In terms of lack of government intervention?

God I hate Ayn Rand even though I get that she was shafted by the USSR. Still...
Wow, have you read most of her work?

Capitalism cannot work without government intervention.
Argreed

I think you should read other people's perspectives too before equate captialism= a economic or socioeconomic system (not good or bad). The best way to frame the question would be:

What sort of system would provide the best incentive to motivate people to work hard without moral hazard that would ensure the welfare of America? Does that system still exist in America?to some degree, but we are not witnessing capitalism

Right now I think captialism is destroying this country. wrongThat sounds harsh. I think there were improper incentives in the financial markets which contributed to the credit crisis which is a no brainer.where did they get this incentive from, thin air I also think America has lost a large portion of its wealth in the middle classes because we are no longer producing anything. Those lost production capabilities aren't adequately replaced with the new information technology.overdose of service industry Just because we have a large pool of Phds doesn't mean other countries are going to outsource intelligence to us. agreed

The curious thing is China is undergoing something like the Industrial Revolution in Britain. Those workers are going to be the new dominant middle class consumers that we used to be. And chances are, a lot of our PhDs will in the future configure products and goods to serve their taste. hopefully we will


GM and FORD is selling a lot of assets. No one wants them. because of capitalism

SUVs and Hummers are going to be the new status symbol in China. very questionable Of course, CEOs of such lucky companies are going to look like geniuses and be renowned for their innovation in improving logistics or marketing which any one with half a brain can manage.
Capitalism dominated or controlled by an oligarchy is not a capitalist system.
Mrmusicrecorder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2009, 05:58 AM   #22
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
ArturiusX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 19,114
Re: Is America still the most capitalist country?

mrmusic, how do you feel about almost all the big banks paying back their bailout money
ArturiusX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2009, 01:43 PM   #23
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,029
Re: Is America still the most capitalist country?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrmusicrecorder View Post
Capitalism dominated or controlled by an oligarchy is not a capitalist system.
Yes it is.
thylacine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2009, 06:17 PM   #24
veteran
 
Mrmusicrecorder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Downtown
Posts: 3,362
Arrow Re: Is America still the most capitalist country?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArturiusX View Post
mrmusic, how do you feel about almost all the big banks paying back their bailout money
Quote:
Originally Posted by thylacine View Post
Yes it is. No, read the definitions, they fundamentally conflict and by definition could not otherwise exist if one of the two definitions was not changed and or amended for...said semantic mishap
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/oligarchy
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/capitalism

Well ArtX, I think that was bound to happen, they borrowed the money (or were forced to) the next logical step would be repayment. I think we went over this in a previous thread
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/30...ll-pop-627612/

That $700 billion number was just the tip of the iceberg.

TARP, TALF, TAF, TLGP, CPFF, MMIF, TSLF, look into this and tell me what percentage has been allocated properly.

Many other concerns as well but it would warrant a dif. thread imo.
http://www.businessinsider.com/the-g...trophe-2009-11
Mrmusicrecorder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2009, 06:45 PM   #25
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
ArturiusX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 19,114
Re: Is America still the most capitalist country?

So do you feel bailouts to the banks are still wrong given they have paid the money back?
ArturiusX is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:11 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0 ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.
Copyright 2008-2010, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online