WCGRider / Ben86 dispute.... - Page 54 - Poker News

A few points, from a very outside observer:

1 - Our memories are incredibly malleable. It's very hard for people to remember events that paint them in a bad light, that go against who they believe they are as a person. It's not even lying, our brains are literally wired to embellish or (in extreme circumstances) make up conversations when necessary. And we believe this new reality completely. Which is why we need to be skeptical of both sides when they recount conversations that happened months or years ago, sometimes under the influence of alcohol, etc. The insertion of one sentence can dramatically alter the meaning of the entire conversation, etc., etc. It's so easy for our brains to do this to us, and of course we allow it to happen. So it's important to look at facts, ideally those agreed to by both sides, and downplay conversations in which both sides have different versions of what was said. Unless you have evidence that one party is known liar, and that is not the case here, where both parties are highly regarded by the poker community.

2 - Ben was in the wrong with the coaching agreement. He agreed to swap coaching, he backed out after getting multiple sessions from Doug. Ben says he needed approval from his partner, which he claims he believed would be forthcoming. But why? If his partner had developed special software or any other Intellectual Property (IP) that gave him and whomever worked with him an advantage, why would he be willing to hand that IP over to another third party? Clearly the right approach would be to assume the partner would refuse, but to at least ask if it's possible.

But even giving Ben the benefit of the doubt, and assuming he thought his partner would agree (again, I think this is just not likely), wouldn't Ben want to call his partner immediately and ask? We are talking about a 5 minute conversation! Why would Ben wait so long to ask? Clearly he knew there was a chance, perhaps even a likelihood, that his partner would refuse. And hence he clearly decided to wait until he had multiple training sessions under his belt before discussing with his partner. Again, this is by his own admission.

Couple this with his own words of how valuable the first hour of training is with a quality instructor, and it's crystal clear: Ben purposely used the ambiguity of the situation - ambiguity which he himself created - to get incredibly valuable training sessions from Doug, knowing there was a chance he could not return the favor.

We can argue on how likely he thought his partner's refusal would be. He claims he thought it was unlikely. I disagree, but this is only my conjecture. But in any case, the likelihood was not 0%, by his own admission. So it was critical for Ben to call his partner before accepting any training from Doug.

3 - Sadly, Ben also comes off quite badly in the Berri incident, as well. It's another situation where he seems to take advantage of ambiguity. So we are starting to see a pattern... However, I want to comment on Ben's last post about his inclusion of Ike, and how he (Ben) was new to arbitration, etc.. He says he is sorry about approaching a friend and learned his lesson.

But again, this strikes me as self-serving. Namely, are we to believe Ben had no idea that it was wrong to ask a friend to be the arbitrator when so much money is on the line? And not only that, but to review the case in advance with his friend before suggesting him as the arbitrator? We are talking about intelligent people here. There is just no way he did not know beforehand that this was a conflict of interest. There is no way. There was no lesson to be learned. By his own admission, he purposely approached a friend to be an arbitrator and colluded with him in advance.

I have no dog in this fight, it seems a lot of well respected people support both parties, I don't view this as one party is "evil" or a "scammer," that's just silly. But I do believe in these two specific instances, Ben really is at fault. I suppose that should be weighed with the many other times where he has acted honestly and professionally, etc., etc. But that does not change the fact that Ben, based on his own admission, was in the wrong here in both these instances.

So what should be done?

In the case of Berri, I agree that Ben should compensate Berri fully for the 40k. Just the act of going behind Berri's back with a friend to arbitrate, coupled with the actual facts, makes this clear. Berri is happy and wants to move on. This should not matter when it comes to doing what is right. Ben should send the rest of the money and formally apologize.

In the case of Doug, Ben should also apologize and discuss how to compensate Doug for the coaching. My guess is that if they put their emotions aside, they could come to some kind of fair and equitable agreement. My guess is that for Doug it's not about the money, but the principle. He disclosed information that he considered his own IP only on the basis of reciprocity which never occurred. Doug wants some formal recognition that he was wronged, and perhaps some form of compensation (doesn't have to be money). I really don't think Ben thought, "Ha, I'll get training for free, then screw Doug!" I think he thought he might get his partner's approval, I think he exaggerated the likelihood to himself, and convinced himself that he was in the right to start his sessions with Doug. And conveniently waited for weeks to seek approval, knowing it might not come, but not really wanting to think about it. So not an outright scam, but still unacceptable. But also human, all too human.

This is an amazing post... did everyone just miss this post?

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10-12-2016 , 08:15 AM

#1328

PasswordGotHacked

banned

Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 2,913

Quote:

Originally Posted by tsarast

This is an amazing post... did everyone just miss this post?

sidesaddle

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10-12-2016 , 08:53 AM

#1329

d2themfi

veteran

Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 3,262

Quote:

Originally Posted by tsarast

This is an amazing post... did everyone just miss this post?

way too reasonable for NVG, mods delete it please

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10-12-2016 , 10:20 AM

#1330

5=2+2

grinder

Join Date: Jan 2014 Posts: 582

America breeds too many hard nosed "winners" who refuse to give in. If necessary they will tick the PC box to "prove" their affability, but the psyche is often forever implanted with the attitude that it is sometimes actually "morally" right to do wrong.

You could quite literally give these two children brain transplants and it is still highly unlikely that either would fully admit to their respective wrongs apart from the token PC box ticking.

Now I know that to be a big generalisation and apologies for bringing the primitive nations argument into it, but it's based on truth and in this instance is a clear factor imho.

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10-12-2016 , 12:18 PM

#1331

AllJackedUp

veteran

Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 2,650

Quote:

Originally Posted by tsarast

This is an amazing post... did everyone just miss this post?

*sigh*

He's eager to resolve the Deeb/Viffer hissy fit, and is now supporting well thought-out and reasonable posts.

We need to ban Brian from NVG.

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01-08-2017 , 01:31 PM

#1332

hooooon

stranger

Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 11

Quote:

Originally Posted by tsarast

This is an amazing post... did everyone just miss this post?

Disagree, way to soft on Doug. The human nature stuff is what it is, even if we don't know these guys there's enough info to look deeper. Doug has refused to acknowledge or dispute that Ben said he had to ask his partner before divulging PLO. Objectively, Doug should never divulge until the agreement is finalized yet he chose to for at least 5 reasons:
Ego: Doug wouldn't put himself in a situation where someone can control his decision making so why would Ben? Every wizard on my level is just like me!
Ego: Doug wanted to prove to Ben that he was the best and ejaculated prematurely.
3, 4, 5 and beyond are generally ego related

There was no agreed upon intent in the BERRI bet so it is in every way null and void.

From a moral standpoint I generally side with Doug and believe Ben dealt with things in a passive aggressive way, but in terms of business ethics there really aren't major issues here. Doug's incessant need for approval and willingness to blindly trust successful people are parts of why he's such a good poker player, but also parts of why he can be so annoying (Kid Poker version Millenial anyone).

Calling out Galfond was petty and stupid. Angle cheapshotting Mercier ditto. It's like saying you're outing a child abuser by having him rape a girl in public. The collateral damage is obviously worse than the intended good. Only a narcissist could fail to see that. These guys are more balanced people and more successful poker players as they have made more money than Doug, the only reason his HUNL game is better is because it needed to be for him to have success of any kind. Maybe Doug is jealous that "lesser players" have made more than him. At Galfond's peak he was as far or farther above the rim than his competition compared to Doug, as was Durrrrrr. Saying Jason is top 5-10% in only large fields is like saying Doug is a bad reg. The game has evolved, which game you learned to beat matters.

BTW Doug's Youtube channel is great and the reason I just stumbled onto this thread, but he has a lot to learn about people. Ben may have more to learn. Perhaps I the most... GL all

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01-08-2017 , 01:39 PM

#1333

TreadLightly

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 3,709

this thread is so 2016 why are you bumping

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01-08-2017 , 01:49 PM

#1334

2pairsof2s

old hand

Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 1,608

It's like a bar fight. Just when it settles down, some dumb kid starts it up again.

Last edited by 2pairsof2s; 01-08-2017 at 01:56 PM. Reason: realized bumper was member for 8 years. Amazed that he picked this bump for his bi-annual post.

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01-08-2017 , 02:35 PM

#1335

bombonca

old hand

Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 1,423

Ben is so ethical with regard to asking his partner if he can couch Doug. Surely he would recognise how unethical he would be to Doug if partner says no and prevent that situation from happening before getting coaching from Doug. After partner says no, Ben either does coaching witouut asking partner or compensates Doug imo.

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01-08-2017 , 04:31 PM

#1336

stinkypete

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 15,783

my buddy just sent me the side saddle video... what's the best way to post it?

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01-08-2017 , 04:39 PM

#1337

D1G1TALFOX

old hand

Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 1,202

-stinkypete by clicking the post button . . .

Last edited by D1G1TALFOX; 01-08-2017 at 04:47 PM.

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01-08-2017 , 11:03 PM

#1338

squire1888

old hand

Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 1,683

seen this was alive again and was gutted to see no side saddling pics

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03-05-2017 , 01:00 AM

#1339

frommagio

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 4,453

Quote:

Originally Posted by D1G1TALFOX

Joey You Missed the whole Point on MANY Topics, If I come up to Your drinking or not and you Yell at me and Scream at ME for a 1 Min Were Fighting (Let alone 30 MIn)

Were Fighting even if it's Sauce, I'm not letting it go You don't disrespect people Like that, The fact You think it's Ok to and straight up disrespect is prob why it's a good thing we never got into a argument . . .

I don't care if I'm burring bridges with You Joey Even though I Do Love You Joey and have even when You did the PLO podcast . . . .

And I didn't even play the game but listen to You. . .

Doug Didn't do Anything Wrong other than the minor misunderstandings that have been stated . . . .

Ben took many days to Try and find the GTO response to something he knows was JUST Wrong from day 1 . . .

This Reminds me Of one Of those old Movies Where The Kidnapper or viLLain or whatEver Cuts Out A bunch oF random words from Various ARTICLES anD glues Them toGether to make his RansOm LETTer.

Last edited by frommagio; 03-05-2017 at 01:05 AM.

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03-05-2017 , 03:34 AM

#1340

R*R

I wish I was Einstein

Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 12,753

Quote:

Originally Posted by frommagio

This Reminds me Of one Of those old Movies Where The Kidnapper or viLLain or whatEver Cuts Out A bunch oF random words from Various ARTICLES anD glues Them toGether to make his RansOm LETTer.

Well put together observation.

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03-05-2017 , 03:34 AM

#1341

Transcendence

grinder

Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 538

Hahahaha good post!

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03-05-2017 , 04:04 AM

#1342

onemoretimes

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 3,535

This is where I give props to Coleman for not giving his interview. I relate to him in not really wanting to get mixed up in this sick mess. Do your ****ing thing (play poker) and move the **** on.

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03-05-2017 , 09:54 PM

#1343

gingersnaps

banned

Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 515

Quote:

Originally Posted by PasswordGotHacked

sidesaddle

i'm so glad password decided to give up posting stupid stuff on this site once and for all

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03-06-2017 , 08:52 AM

#1344

vrael111

veteran

Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 2,949

Pretty sure he's still around

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03-06-2017 , 10:57 AM

#1345

AlwaysFolding

Urban Pharmer

Join Date: Oct 2016 Posts: 19,980

Quote:

Originally Posted by vrael111

Pretty sure he's still around

slide into my DMs with his current gimmick alias plz

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03-20-2017 , 09:19 AM

#1346

Mertiful

stranger

Join Date: Dec 2016 Posts: 1

Quote:

Originally Posted by betterlol

Only an american would say that "I'm richer than you" is a bigger insult than "I'm better than you".

And WCG is acting like a petty vindictive woman.

Funny funny funny.

man you are really don`t understand a point when you say to someone "im richer than you" ,"i have more friends than you" and so one to direct person it`s direct insult to the person you saying it to, when person says he`s best at something he`s doing like "i`m best at nlhu" and he`s saying that not to one person, it`s not an insult directed to anyone, but at worst a bragging about how good he is.

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03-20-2017 , 10:06 AM

#1347

vrael111

veteran

Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 2,949

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlwaysFolding

slide into my DMs with his current gimmick alias plz

Wut

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03-20-2017 , 11:44 AM

#1348

Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 8,132

Quote:

Originally Posted by vrael111

Pretty sure he's still around

He was so f bad at posting, I hopes he's learned his lesson and sucks 100% less than he used to.

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03-20-2017 , 12:39 PM

#1349

goat lover

centurion

Join Date: Jul 2016 Posts: 146

THIS IS WAY BETTER THAN MY IDEA THAT BEN SHOULD GET A WCGRider tattoo... i mean really.... a bunch of pictures of suggested tatoos and where to place them would probably derail this thread... DO NOT POST TATTOO IDEAS HERE....

Quote:

Originally Posted by tsarast

This is an amazing post... did everyone just miss this post?

Quote

12-09-2020 , 11:09 PM

#1350

Actuallyterrified

stranger

Join Date: Sep 2016 Posts: 6

I have received messages over the years from fellow poker players, asking for an update on the side saddle issue with Ben. This was settled with Ben in the winter of 2016. I apologize for the personal attack on Ben, which should have been handled privately.

- AP

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