Saying stuff like "I'm richer than you"? The horror. That's merely a statement of fact (assuming it's true), not an insult. And when you consider that they were drunk at the time, this could've been smoothed over once everyone was sober and had blown off some steam. Plus Doug has said he's never had someone treat him like that in his life...you've never been in a verbal, personal spat with someone? Really? I think it really takes away from the legitimacy of Doug's story because the hyperbole is real.

Two SHAE,

If you were in Ben's shoes, and Sauce won, would you let Berri off the hook just because he said 'gogo' ?

If I were in Ben's shoes there is absolutely no way I would let Berri off the hook had Sauce won, and no arbitrator would either. First sentence of that convo makes it super clear what Ben means:

[2015-12-06 21:06:31] Ben: I'm trying to get down a small xbook on sauce vs trueteller hu 8 game today

Think it through from other perspective. Sauce won, now Berri tries to get paid and says I thought we both bet on Sauce. They show it to arbitrator and Berri says his proof is that he said 'gogo'. Does it sound reasonable that anyone would call it a wash? That would seem the most ridiculous freeroll ever and noone would agree that he shouldn't pay.

How about an MMA fight to settle things?

Agreed, and given Berri would have been on the hook for payment if it happened that Sauce won, he should receive payment for trueteller winning otherwise he is being held liable but ben never is.

The thread is long at this point, I am not sure how much you have seen or read. But you do realize that Ben was the first one to bring up the personal details, in a way that was a complete lie that tried to make me look like a chump.

All my posts were business related until the "I guess we are going to do this post"

Trying to decide if this is serious.

Just because something is a fact you can't just say it. There are many things in life like that, its called understanding how be a human being.

It's about BERRI's intentions. If you don't believe that he was trying to freeroll, then there's no reason it shouldn't be a wash, regardless of the results.

Sure, if BERRI would have paid Ben in the event that Sauce won, then Ben should have to pay BERRI in the actual status quo. But I find it EXTREMELY hard to believe that BERRI would have been like "Oh, you meant this, I understand now, here's your 40k". I think he'd be arguing the bet was a wash. Which is why I think it was a genuine misunderstanding that wasn't any more Ben's fault than BERRI's, and that should be a wash.

How different is saying "I'm richer than you" than saying to other poker players who play HUNL "I'm the best in the world at HUNL"?

They are completely different.

the latter is only different because it's somewhat debatable, but it's equally abrasive, pointless bragging meant to boost your own ego.

And to be clear I'm really not trying to take sides here, I do feel like Doug got shorted in their interaction/business dealings

indeed completely different

Doug telling people how to "be a human being" is LOL. Extremely arrogant and disrespectful person that doesn't even realize it. Now all of a sudden he's backing down from the "bad reg" thing he started. He would giggle with his friends about it all the time and clearly in a demeaning way but now he decides to back track. If you're going to be the villain have a backbone for me one time. Don't backtrack cause you're getting heat.

Also saying " what is this high school?" when asked if he would fight Ben. Coming from the person that goes " omg you should have heard what Ben said about Phil Galfond" when it had nothing to do with the story. That is straight out of a teenage girl play book.

And Ben didn't get into personal stuff. All he said is you did your speech that the whole world has heard that you think you're the best hu player and you guys talked about it. You're the one that turned it really personal into all the details about the convo.

And most importantly why is everyone taking what Doug is saying as Gospel. His goal was clearly to try to ruin Bens image with the Phil Galfond stuff. I would not find it hard to believe he made up a bunch of other stuff. That was his whole goal. To ruin his reputation by bringing up anything and everything

thanks for the explanations fayth/ponty, you're being very helpful here, come again

I'm sure the only reason is because there's no plausible deniability there.

One is attacking another person and one is boasting. Totally different.

But why would Ben believe him? It's impossible to interpret from that conversation that BERRI meant what he now claims he actually meant. Why do you think Ben wouldn't think that BERRI is trying to freeroll him, or say that 'if Trueteller won I would've paid you, thus you would've freerolled me and you have to pay because of that' ?

I'm amazed nobody can see the obvious here. It's time for a poll.

uhh, we can just agree to disagree at this point, but will answer your questions in line. I understand your point and I don't think you're an idiot, I just don't agree with you. As I said, this is not a court of law, it's a unique and nuanced community with a lot of relationships and implicit trust built in.

Context and tone are important. "I'm the best in the world at HUNL" said in a flippant way is different than saying "I'm richer than you" with a serious tone. If there was banter going on that also changes things. We don't know the details so it's hard to say.

Arbitration never works out in poker because it isn't actually binding. In the real world you sign enforced contracts based on the arbitration.

In the poker world you have two major issues. The first being all the top guys are all friends so there is no impartial judge. Second, there is no enforcement so if the decision made isn't liked then the person just backs out of the arbitration.

For example, I was once an arbiter and ruled against a HS player. That player then called me an idiot for my ruling, backed out of the arbitration, then challenged me to prop bet that different judges (his friends) would have ruled differently than me.

As far as the berri sweet cross book situation goes it's a hard position because we don't know what berri does if sauce had won. If he would have paid, would ben have accepted the money? If so, ben was freerolling berri.

This 100%.

I'm actually surprised Berri wanted arbitration at all. He must've thought he was out 20K but turns out he mis-understood what exactly he was betting on and was actually owed 40K. Thus I now see how the 2nd arbitrator came to the conclusion they did.

If you want to call out Ben for mishandling the situation that's understandable. But because we are not yet robots and are still unfortunately human, intention is what matters here.

Wow it's so rare to have such an entertaining thread about multiple long time very well known players. I wonder how many people are out there like me who read this thread that don't care at this point about any new online players, but clearly remember Ben as an OG who rose up from 2/4 in 2008 and 5/10 an 10/20 in 2009 to nosebleeds.

I remember in 2009 or 2010, nycballer in the HSNL thread implied Ben was a bumhunter, Ben responded and said that was "extremely offensive" and nycballer loled and said dude calm down this is the Internet. No response from Ben on that one.

Based on these 2 parts of the conversation I find it very hard to believe that Ben would ever let BERRI out of the bet. Ben says he is looking for a small xbook, clearly looking to book it with BERRI and not split a 100% crossbook against trueteller.

Then BERRI says "if I lose" and not "if we lose". I'm quite confused how BERRI thought he was betting with Ben. Even his own wording makes it seem like he is betting against Ben in the crossbook.

BERRI made a bet on something other than what he thought he was. Then ran good and won the bet. He should be able to collect his winnings even if he made the winning bet by accident. Any hypothetical scenarios on what happens if he lost should be irrelevant.

This berri not so sweet situation all could've been avoided if berri didn't say anything at all after he found out he won the bet..

yeah I honestly was hoping that ben and doug were delusional enough to think they could win money off Riess the Beast because I believe he is the only person in this day in age of poker, that his intentions are truly great.