Interesting enough I think it was Ben on one of Joeys podcast(maybe last year) talking about coaching and how he wouldnt coach because of how its too hard to put a fair value on talking strategy with a player better then you because its just worth so much to the player rec the coaching. If I remember the convo right he went on to say the only fair way to do such a thing would to be like a longterm % of action.

Imagine a player of Bens caliber finding one of the only a handful of guys better then him at a game and getting coaching. The value to a guy that smart is just absurd.

No clue what you're getting at here

This Martin guy should be a billionaire if he can do what you suggest he can do.

This "magical" software is probably just some custom Pio solver type offline learning tool, could be a good one, could be a not so good one, who knows.

Plus, if these guys were so mega genius that they could produce a PLO "dream machine", I don't think that they would need Doug's super unique expertise in order to develop one for NLHE. And even if they did, we would have have heard about them being the new NLHE end bosses, right?

I never made any claims or suggestions about what this "magical software", I simply said custom software.

I think it is very likely as you say some sort of Game Theory solver /GT strategy estimator for PLO...that is what Alix Martin's public videos were showing doing 5+ years ago for easier problems.

Even with GT software, such as Pio Solver, knowing an opponents thoughts on strategy and also their knowledge of how the field plays, is very useful. You can test those strategies against the theory and also look to develop minimial deviation strategies to exploit their mistakes.

Remember until about 2 years, PokerJuice didn't even exist. the PLO market was severely under-served by game specific analytical tools. ProPokerTools (which PJ is build on) could give you equities, but didn't allow the sort of strategy development that PJ now allows.

Imagine if Doug told Ben the specific exploitable strategy weaknesses in Sauce's HU game, that allowed Doug to profit for a lot of money in their challenge. Sauce won't play Doug anymore, but he might play Ben as he thinks he is behind the curve on HU NL.

Feel both parties should go have a shower wash sand out of vagoozies then go back to winning all the money and retiring. After that maybe joining the real world and getting married, having some kids getting some non online friends and never posting on the internet again

You're welcome

Timing tell...

OK, custom software. Maybe I got you confused with some of the people scared of the magical "dream machine" that can automatically collect all their money.

Pio solver type software could be helpful, and it is readily available for very few NLHE players who can and are willing to put in the effort that is needed in order to use it to gain some sort of competitive advantage.

If someone has such a thing for PLO then they are definitely taking this even more variance heavy form of poker seriously. I am sure that such a learning tool could help them become even better, but the amount of work that would be needed suggests that these people would not be your typical gambling type in the first place. They most likely would have an edge over the rest of the field to begin with. So there you have it.

Entire thread is LOL; its like watching highschool girls bicker back n forth on FB.


My only question to Ben- so is this PLO strat you and your partner worked on groundbreaking stuff in your eyes or something? Why the ufck should it matter to your partner if you share it with someone else who already gave you insight into his (obviously) profitable NL strat?

Pay teh man his coaching dick. Also, both of you need to learn some social skills. Just sayin

Yes it was other people going on about dream machine / auto suggestion software.

One thing to also note is that this bust up story comes from 2013/2014, PioSolver and alike weren't available in the general marketplace. At that time, even for NL, the most advanced strategy tool was CREV (and that was just for Holdem).

With lots of people now using PioSolver, it is becoming clear that some previously common strategies are definitely not a good idea in terms of Game Theory (which is a long way from saying GTO - confirmed solved) base strategy.

Having the ability to test some of this 2-3 years ago (and work with somebody who has good expertise in Game Theory), plus also having it for PLO, would be a massive advantage over the field.

I would be shocked if all the top players don't have some custom software to enable them to work on their game. If you play in games where you could make $1+ million a year (which was definitely possible 2-3 years ago), paying even $x00k for custom software is not out of the quesstion.

Well this would fall under the specific joint venture Stinger88 type thing and not the general super dooper Doug NLHE strategy that is sure to give you a competitive advantage against anyone deal now, wouldn't it?

Ben86 trying to make Doug look douchy. I think it's actually douchier not being able to admit someone is best in world. Ben86 has such a donger for stats and numbers he can't just accept Doug's skill. I think any person who is "best in world" would be passionate about it like Doug and it kinda comes off weird.

Doug mentioned Jason is top 5% in MTT, is there someone who you would consider best in world? (Fedor? or someone else?)

Well yes..but it could be slightly less specific. It could have been more general discussion of

"A common flawed strategy I see in the high stakes HU, is where they do... and what you should do is...We (Evil Empire) have done the analysis on these spots and they are flawed because...etc etc etc..

Question, does (insert name) do this.

Yes.

Good to know.

You use the word "custom" too liberally imo.

Looking at the September HS thread in NVG I highly doubt that even if they have such custom software:

1. It is a very good one.

and/or

2. They know how to use it very well.

And even if I am mistaken regarding the above, "regular" players will not have to worry about this subject too much as it evidently mainly pertains to the High Stakes "Sicko" world LOL.

This reminds me of two teenage girls arguing about who should have won prom queen

See Skier software debate...he shared his custom software with 2-3 others and they rose from low stakes to high stakes HUSnG's in months, but his downfall was he shared it and one of them shouted their mouth off.

If Ben told wcg "I'll do the deal but I might not be able to coach you plo and it's out of my hands if I cannot" and if WCG still coached the NL first with this knowledge, how can any of you criticize Ben?

Maybe WCG could have learned something from this instead of blaming Ben.

I posted my encounter for the sole purpose to give an example of Ben reacting poorly to a situation. I have only met him that time, and have had no other dealings with him, positive or negative. Take what you will from my story, he was just 23 or 24, he may have matured some what since the incident. I felt it was relevant because it was around the same time as Dougs encounter with him. I have nothing to gain from opening up about this, and if he wants to have an actual man to man conversation about it, feel free to PM me Ben.

- AP

Thread is whatever, but the subject matter involves an all-time scam for millions of dollars of information.

So the players were supposed to swap coaching and one didn't fulfill?

Ouch.

That aside, positive poker coaching has a $/hr cost that has an almost unlimited future value. What a great thread to highlight how cost effective coaching is.

The problem here is that from dougs perspective Ben never said the 'might not be able to' part / 'ask partner first' part







Also the people saying just ask Ben to 'make it right ' etc , pretty sure 1) Doug would never want to sit and listen / ask questions of Ben and Ben wouldn't want to teach anything especially now 2) even if he did, the info would be much more valuable back in 2013 when there was lots of high stakes action going compared to now where it's 8-game only

It's not out of Bens hands though. He could have stuck to the original agreement with WCG

The HUNL SNG turbo (let alone hyper) push-fold pre-flop chart mass tabling crapshoot is definitely not comparable to NL HU cash, let alone 6-max cash in terms of "dream machine potential". And PLO is a whole different movie altogether.

Pretty obvious at this point that Ben couldn't coach to make it right anymore.

Only real fair resolution is that either Ben fairly compensates Doug for the coaching he received or Ben compensates Doug for the lost value from not coaching PLO (under some period of time within reason).

These amounts are obviously very subjective and could end up being very large, they'd likely be subject to some sort of arbitration and Ben may balk at whatever high dollar value may be attached.

I obviously never expect any of the above to ever happen, but just theorizing what may be the fairest resolution at this point.

the only relevant part of this story is how embarrassing it is to have some useless tryhard bro like WCGRider somehow become a face of even part of the online poker pro community all because he (and an ever increasing # of others) can now be spoonfed world class info by software (and friends who learned from software, etc) when all he ever was and would be without it is a forgettable full ring reg with a predictably pathetic ego

knowing that all games played online for $ can not survive the inevitable continued development of machine learning, exponential price performance progression of processing, etc and that cringeworthy bros like WCG are capable of representing specifically online poker I can now, for the first time since online poker's inception, say that the end cant come soon enough