fyp

i was pretty sure about this, but thx for bringing that up


anyways ....

why do ben and doug ignore jason #moredrama #plotthickens #cliffhanger

A few points, from a very outside observer:

1 - Our memories are incredibly malleable. It's very hard for people to remember events that paint them in a bad light, that go against who they believe they are as a person. It's not even lying, our brains are literally wired to embellish or (in extreme circumstances) make up conversations when necessary. And we believe this new reality completely. Which is why we need to be skeptical of both sides when they recount conversations that happened months or years ago, sometimes under the influence of alcohol, etc. The insertion of one sentence can dramatically alter the meaning of the entire conversation, etc., etc. It's so easy for our brains to do this to us, and of course we allow it to happen. So it's important to look at facts, ideally those agreed to by both sides, and downplay conversations in which both sides have different versions of what was said. Unless you have evidence that one party is known liar, and that is not the case here, where both parties are highly regarded by the poker community.

2 - Ben was in the wrong with the coaching agreement. He agreed to swap coaching, he backed out after getting multiple sessions from Doug. Ben says he needed approval from his partner, which he claims he believed would be forthcoming. But why? If his partner had developed special software or any other Intellectual Property (IP) that gave him and whomever worked with him an advantage, why would he be willing to hand that IP over to another third party? Clearly the right approach would be to assume the partner would refuse, but to at least ask if it's possible.

But even giving Ben the benefit of the doubt, and assuming he thought his partner would agree (again, I think this is just not likely), wouldn't Ben want to call his partner immediately and ask? We are talking about a 5 minute conversation! Why would Ben wait so long to ask? Clearly he knew there was a chance, perhaps even a likelihood, that his partner would refuse. And hence he clearly decided to wait until he had multiple training sessions under his belt before discussing with his partner. Again, this is by his own admission.

Couple this with his own words of how valuable the first hour of training is with a quality instructor, and it's crystal clear: Ben purposely used the ambiguity of the situation - ambiguity which he himself created - to get incredibly valuable training sessions from Doug, knowing there was a chance he could not return the favor.

We can argue on how likely he thought his partner's refusal would be. He claims he thought it was unlikely. I disagree, but this is only my conjecture. But in any case, the likelihood was not 0%, by his own admission. So it was critical for Ben to call his partner before accepting any training from Doug.

3 - Sadly, Ben also comes off quite badly in the Berri incident, as well. It's another situation where he seems to take advantage of ambiguity. So we are starting to see a pattern... However, I want to comment on Ben's last post about his inclusion of Ike, and how he (Ben) was new to arbitration, etc.. He says he is sorry about approaching a friend and learned his lesson.

But again, this strikes me as self-serving. Namely, are we to believe Ben had no idea that it was wrong to ask a friend to be the arbitrator when so much money is on the line? And not only that, but to review the case in advance with his friend before suggesting him as the arbitrator? We are talking about intelligent people here. There is just no way he did not know beforehand that this was a conflict of interest. There is no way. There was no lesson to be learned. By his own admission, he purposely approached a friend to be an arbitrator and colluded with him in advance.

I have no dog in this fight, it seems a lot of well respected people support both parties, I don't view this as one party is "evil" or a "scammer," that's just silly. But I do believe in these two specific instances, Ben really is at fault. I suppose that should be weighed with the many other times where he has acted honestly and professionally, etc., etc. But that does not change the fact that Ben, based on his own admission, was in the wrong here in both these instances.

So what should be done?

In the case of Berri, I agree that Ben should compensate Berri fully for the 40k. Just the act of going behind Berri's back with a friend to arbitrate, coupled with the actual facts, makes this clear. Berri is happy and wants to move on. This should not matter when it comes to doing what is right. Ben should send the rest of the money and formally apologize.

In the case of Doug, Ben should also apologize and discuss how to compensate Doug for the coaching. My guess is that if they put their emotions aside, they could come to some kind of fair and equitable agreement. My guess is that for Doug it's not about the money, but the principle. He disclosed information that he considered his own IP only on the basis of reciprocity which never occurred. Doug wants some formal recognition that he was wronged, and perhaps some form of compensation (doesn't have to be money). I really don't think Ben thought, "Ha, I'll get training for free, then screw Doug!" I think he thought he might get his partner's approval, I think he exaggerated the likelihood to himself, and convinced himself that he was in the right to start his sessions with Doug. And conveniently waited for weeks to seek approval, knowing it might not come, but not really wanting to think about it. So not an outright scam, but still unacceptable. But also human, all too human.

Lol at all of this Finger pointing drama



Sent from my GT-I9195 using 2+2 Forums

Bottom line is Ben Tollerene scammed for maybe 100s of 1000s worth of info? Maybe millions when all things are considered and you can pass that info onto others and maybe take pieces of them etc...?

Just seems to me that the fact that Ben kept saying "small sample" etc about Doug etc was a way to try and sabotage Dougs brain into thinking the info he gave him wasn't worth as much as it was.

Ben Tollerene is a straight up scammer IMO

Aren't you all in Vancouver for WCOOP? meet up like a man @ starbucks, grab a latte and sit down and resolve this as gentleman. It is obvious Doug is owed PLO coaching here, this is truly unfair.

I've been talking with friends and random people about this nonstop since it happened and I think it is pretty clear I'm not on anyones side. It is a ****ty situation that was made even worse. What is there to side with Ben about?? They had a coaching arrangement in some capacity, he backed out. It is pretty clear. I think this is something that could have been figured out before the 5am happenings and is something that might still be able to be figured out in some way. Hopefully it will happen.

All of the personal details being shared from a 5am drunk conversation on a bed I don't think is GTO. From talking with Doug, I get why he included them.

Dude, how can u seriously just side with Ben?

Why are people ignoring the fact that Ben86 is one of the best at high stakes NL before Doug even took up HU NL or played any high stakes? Ben already mentioned that he helped Doug when he's playing an opponent Ben studied. So, it was NOT unilateral coaching arrangement that most people are assuming. Both sides would benefit from the coaching sessions since they're both beasts at NLH

Parenthood is teaching you to listen well

Noob question... Why would Ben gaf about getting NL coaching if he has a PLO dream machine that prints him money?

lol @ people saying Joey is siding with Ben just because his video was more nuanced than "zomg ben is a scammer and scumbag!!!11"

Who cares if he was one of the best before.

At the time of the coaching stuff Doug was the best and Doug still is the best I think since then. Has anyone beaten Doug?

I was under the impression Ben86 was slipping in NL around this time.

Ego

Make more money

Teach other people these new concepts potentially and charge them big $$$$ and slowly sandbag them for lot's of $$$$

Maybe after slipping from the top of the food chain he was interested in learning new concepts as well

When Ben said "how valuable the first hour of training is with a quality instructor is" was he talking

average player with amazing player
amazing player with amazing player
or that part doesn't matter?

Joey I you but listen objectively to what you posted. You may not be on anyone's side in your head but the way it came off in your video made it seem like you were on Ben's side.

On a more lighthearted note, I love the unintentional out of character voice you had to say "32 minute video" while scoffing at it. I chuckled.

Among other things.

His progam can solve PLO but not NL?

And ben moved to PLO because he wasn't getting action in NL

Bolded #1 - It's obvious you haven't been following Doug crushing the micros lately in his 100-10k challenge. I wouldn't conclusively say he was best even then as he didn't have the sample size. Isildur1 was easily the best HUNL player at that time. He crushed Jungleman, Doug, Durrrr and anyone who played him in NL

Bolded #2 - What gave you this impression? Did you make this up?

To make up the side saddle story is just fkn stupid if you have...making this up just puts holes in the story and make this Ur upswing ad.

If ben is denying said story so vehemently and found to be lying, just lol.

Either happened or it didn't. Ps confirmed horses in Bahamas :$

well every single person who watched the video and commented in here says you are siding with ben86. are they just all wrong?

Doug-

Did you and Ben ever explicitly outline on paper somewhere the terms of your coaching swap deal, or was it more of a handshake/verbal thing?

If you two are ever going to move towards a resolution, looking at those terms (assuming there is a record of them somewhere) is probably a good start.


I don't believe anyone has really responded to this part. Since Ben/Doug were still communicating after Ben told Doug he couldn't give him PLO coaching (ie, before their personal falling out), why wasn't there a resolution where Doug got pieces of Ben's NL action for X amount of time in exchange for the Y hours of NL coaching he received?

If Jungleman ever makes his post we might get the answer to such tough questions.

You are right, when i watched it back earlier I did think it would come off that way to some people. I like both Doug and Ben a lot. It's a tough spot.

Let's speculate on jungleman's info

Only HellaEffort. Nobody knows who that is but I have my suspicions.

+1 ... seriously, put ur pitchforks down

Joey is a huge part of NVG and he delivers so much free/fun content, pls don't try to drag him into this lol-wreck


gossip theory optimal <3