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Washington State Residents can no longer play real money on Pokerstars Washington State Residents can no longer play real money on Pokerstars

10-01-2010 , 12:19 AM
I still think federal legislation is whats best for the long term survival of online poker in the US and I support it. It also isn't perfect and for some players, esp. in opt-out states it will be an immediate hardship.
10-01-2010 , 12:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEngineer
Perhaps, but it seems Washington state opted out just fine on its own. IMO we need to worry about establishing a stable market that states would like to be a part of, one where U.S. based sites can participate, rather than hoping we don't get more laws against us.
I agree,
10-01-2010 , 12:21 AM
Its fair to point out that this is evidence against the status quo being sustainable and that, for all of you players that are shocked by this and have chosen to do nothing, this is the path we are headed down. If you lived in WA and this is a complete shock, I dont know what to tell you.

Its also fair to point out that, under Federal Legislation, this will be guaranteed to happen to players at least some other states. Nova basically nails it, and its why I think its fair to point it out now while we have everyone's attention.

The simple fact is, online poker is not going back to the way it was. Our choices are an ever tightening status quo or a currently fair to middling Federal bill or terrible state bills.

The only way to improve the currently mediocre Federal bill is for more poker players to get involved and stand up for their rights. Thats almost certainly the right path, but we all openly acknowledge the current bill is going to result in a meaningful number of players ending up, at least in the short term, where WA players find themselves today or worse (since FTP hasnt pulled out...yet)
10-01-2010 , 12:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frylock
though I have a bad feeling Tilt isn't too far behind.
Well it wont help to ask the PPA, I saw that someone already tried though. I'm not really sure why they didn't tell us about today but I am pretty sure they knew about it.

I always liked being the example made in school too but thought those days were long gone
10-01-2010 , 12:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skallagrim
Whether your clear distortion of fact was a deliberate lie or a reckless mis-statement, I do not know. But that you were wrong in your statement is clear. How that affects your credibility I will let others decide for themselves.
I will try and leave the deliberate lies to The Engineer. I should have said that a PPA lawyer, who has a PPA undertitle, said 'The best educated guesses I have seen suggest that the number of opt-out states will be around 12.'
10-01-2010 , 12:24 AM
I also wouldnt be throwing blame around at anyone for causing this. There's plenty to go around starting with players, working through to the strategy to challenge this law in court in the way it was challenged, and finishing with Stars who very well may be making a play to both get licensed and drum up legislative support at the expense of WA players. Blame helps no one, lets move on to fight this.
10-01-2010 , 12:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Kristofferson
Well it wont help to ask the PPA, I saw that someone already tried though. I'm not really sure why they didn't tell us about today but I am pretty sure they knew about it.

I always liked being the example made in school too but thought those days were long gone
You can't blame the PPA for not telling you
It was a decision made by PS, one in which everyone should have been ready for in WA for several years.
10-01-2010 , 12:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LetsGambool
Its fair to point out that this is evidence against the status quo being sustainable and that, for all of you players that are shocked by this and have chosen to do nothing, this is the path we are headed down. If you lived in WA and this is a complete shock, I dont know what to tell you.

Its also fair to point out that, under Federal Legislation, this will be guaranteed to happen to players at least some other states. Nova basically nails it, and its why I think its fair to point it out now while we have everyone's attention.

The simple fact is, online poker is not going back to the way it was. Our choices are an ever tightening status quo or a currently fair to middling Federal bill or terrible state bills.

The only way to improve the currently mediocre Federal bill is for more poker players to get involved and stand up for their rights. Thats almost certainly the right path, but we all openly acknowledge the current bill is going to result in a meaningful number of players ending up, at least in the short term, where WA players find themselves today or worse (since FTP hasnt pulled out...yet)
Well said
10-01-2010 , 12:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dtkodak
For all you WA residents, where were you when the trail was going on? i had a 3man car pool. Not counting us, there was maybe 20 people there.

Next time show up to a ****ing 1hr hearing and show them we got numbers. it was sad. 20 ****ing ppl? and how many poker pros do we have in this state? how many people that are semi pros?

k thx. dumb ****s not getting off your ass.
Agreed, there was a prominent thread up a couple weeks ahead of time. The most frustrating thing was I couldn't make it because my stupid f'ing job.
10-01-2010 , 12:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeapFrog
I assume that you base your 'honest opinions' on fact, not phases of the moon, so lets hear how I helped throw WA players under the bus. If I had said the same thing about you, you would certainly demand a detailed explanation.
You've done it by repeatedly attacking posters who seek to stand up for poker rights. You continually jump on those who stand up for our rights and go after them because they won't oppose the very bills we got introduced into Congress in the first place.

I get that you don't support our efforts, but it's the active opposition that I'm calling out here.

Here's the most offensive one to me:

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeapFrog
good legislation could be a repeal of UIGEA or whatever. It doesn't have to force gaming on the states. If you want to say it would never pass, that is fine.
It's fine, huh? As these are the best bills that can even be introduced, you are essentially telling us to abandon Congress (as we cannot even get a repeal of UIGEA introduced, much less passed) and just to hope for the best. You then imply that we're sellouts for not demanding the impossible.

Also, it's almost like you don't even recognize that there's a political process. You don't seem to understand that we need to build our support in Congress by writing, calling, and lobbying.

Here's another:

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeapFrog
Time for a Gaboonvipereske Armageddon post:

Online poker (at least as we know it) has a shelf life. Exactly what that is, who knows. 'Cultural shifts' (people become less interested in playing poker), knowledge creep, the state of the economy, and of course bots are each factors that could unbalance the games. By unbalance, I mean make the games unprofitable or close enough to it that we would see the number of professional online players shrink to almost nothing.

I would be stunned if botting/computer assistance (alone) doesn't render the games worthless within 15 years, probably more like 10. So, I'm not exactly sure what your long term plan is here. 5-7 years of the status quo sounds like bliss to me, really.
You'll excuse me if I don't think we should just play defense for seven years and lose a few states on the way. We can do better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeapFrog
Look, this is very simple. I believe that all Americans should have the right to play poker online, at a decent room. I will not support legislation which further endangers that right or organization that advocates for it.
The problem isn't that you won't support it. The problem is that you come here and actively discourage people from pushing for such legislation. As we're clear underdogs with the current federal legislation, how would your idea accomplish anything? Oh yeah....you're fine without passing anything and clinging to the status quo until it crumbles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeapFrog
yeah I was probably on 2+2 doing my part to inform players about what awaits them if their state opts out, giving them the straight dope as it were as opposed to the PPA 'unlicensed sites will grow!' whitewash.
Yep. Good job talking some posters out of supporting a plan that brings stability and growth to the U.S. poker market.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeapFrog
well sorry, I'm unwilling to throw millions of poker players under the bus with state opt outs. Seems ironic you are, but we live in strange times.

I would rather fight for legislation unlikely to pass, then sell out millions of poker players who just want to be able to enjoy a reasonable (quality that is) game from their homes.
It seems you're trying to throw all of us under the bus of false hopes just so you can get your dream of a five year status quo.

Last edited by Rich Muny; 10-01-2010 at 12:41 AM. Reason: typo
10-01-2010 , 12:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by novahunterpa
You can't blame the PPA for not telling you
It was a decision made by PS, one in which everyone should have been ready for in WA for several years.
And they knew about it. Are you even a Washington player? I think you've made your point here, or pointssss. Why is it not ok for me to blame the PPA for not telling me something they knew was going to happen? It's a bit hard for me to believe the PPA has my interests in mind when knowing this even a day ahead would have made it a bit easier to deal with. Butnah

Everyone just seems a little too prepared for this with their posts of support of the decision and seem to be using it as leverage to push legislation.
10-01-2010 , 12:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by poker4jab
For those of you saying, "meh, just get a real job" GTFO, that is not the point. Personal freedoms are at stake.

And even worse, for those of you saying "meh, protesting won't accomplish anything because no one else cares about online poker." GTFO. Apathy accomplishes nothing, and it's that **** poor attitude thats not helping you or anyone else. You should be ashamed of your political efficacy.

I don't know what the best course of action is, but we should follow what the PPA and people like Rich Muny say that can advise us; they have our interests at heart.

And obv vote for the candidates who support us.
+
10-01-2010 , 12:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Kristofferson
And they knew about it. Are you even a Washington player? I think you've made your point here, or pointssss. Why is it not ok for me to blame the PPA for not telling me something they knew was going to happen? It's a bit hard for me to believe the PPA has my interests in mind when knowing this even a day ahead would have made it a bit easier to deal with. Butnah

Everyone just seems a little too prepared for this with their posts of support of the decision and seem to be using it as leverage to push legislation.
I know you're only 18 posts in, but stop posting.
10-01-2010 , 12:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEngineer
The problem isn't that you won't support it. The problem is that you come here and actively discourage people from pushing for such legislation. As we're clear underdogs with the current federal legislation, how would your idea accomplish anything? Oh yeah....you're fine without passing anything and clinging to the status quo until it crumbles.
I've said many, many times that I support litigation and will support bills that do not have the potential to exclude millions of Americans from playing poker.
10-01-2010 , 12:57 AM
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10-01-2010 , 01:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeapFrog
I've said many, many times that I support litigation and will support bills that do not have the potential to exclude millions of Americans from playing poker.
And I've replied many times that there is no potential for a bill that will force this on all fifty states. Insisting on that which cannot even be introduced is the same thing as rejecting federal legislation.

Also, FWIW, it wouldn't be the bills or PPA excluding millions of players. It would be the states themselves -- as Washington state has chosen to do without federal legislation -- which do still have some powers. Failing to pass anything ever at the federal level would result in all of us getting thrown under the bus. Legislation, OTOH, gives states something to opt into, while giving us a base to lobby the opt out states until they opt in.
10-01-2010 , 01:27 AM
The Federal bill would cause licensed sites to leave the opt out states. There is cause and effect here.

Without licensing, states can choose to make online poker illegal, and we know as of now at least Poker Stars will abide by the verdict.

Apathy screws us either way.
10-01-2010 , 01:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeapFrog
I've said many, many times that I support litigation and will support bills that do not have the potential to exclude millions of Americans from playing poker.
Litigation is awesome if we win, but is a disaster if we lose. Also, the Washington state action is not primarily a Wire Act issue. Rather, it's one of state law plus UIGEA. AFAIK, litigation doesn't buy us anything in those states.

That being said, PPA is prepared to proceed forward with litigation if we it becomes the appropriate path, but we still reside in a nation where laws are passed by the legislative branch. That's where we'll have to be at the end of the day, no matter what else happens.
10-01-2010 , 01:28 AM
GL Washington players.

I'd recommend a large group of protestors showing up outside parliament and staying there until you get some media attention.
10-01-2010 , 01:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LetsGambool
The Federal bill would cause licensed sites to leave the opt out states. There is cause and effect here.
I don't know. Washington state caused PokerStars to leave just fine without a federal bill.

Also, without a federal bill, Washington state was voting on whether to criminalize play on offshore, untaxed (by the state), unregulated (by the state) sites that were seen as competition to instate interests. With a federal bill, states will be voting on whether to accept tax revenues for play on licensed, regulated, age verified, taxed sites with some services either offered by instate interests or at least with some potential partnering. Which sounds more appealing to state legislators?

Quote:
Without licensing, states can choose to make online poker illegal, and we know as of now at least Poker Stars will abide by the verdict.
True

Quote:
Apathy screws us either way.
+1
10-01-2010 , 01:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Kristofferson
And they knew about it. Are you even a Washington player? I think you've made your point here, or pointssss. Why is it not ok for me to blame the PPA for not telling me something they knew was going to happen? It's a bit hard for me to believe the PPA has my interests in mind when knowing this even a day ahead would have made it a bit easier to deal with. Butnah
No dice there. It's clear that PS had to read the court decision before making their decision, so obviously there was no extended lead time for anyone.

Also, if we did happen to hear of it a day before and blasted it out, that would have been the last time we'd hear about things in advance. So, how do you know we didn't leak something last time we heard and were not told of it this time as a result?

The reality is that I received the press release not long before the announcement, and that was just so I could have threads ready to go here.

Quote:
Everyone just seems a little too prepared for this with their posts of support of the decision and seem to be using it as leverage to push legislation.
I have over 10K posts on this issue over the past four years. I'm pretty well versed on the issue, so I was certainly ready to post on it.
10-01-2010 , 02:01 AM
So it sounds as though the PPA supports PokerStars decision, correct?
10-01-2010 , 02:03 AM
This is the happiest day of my life.
10-01-2010 , 02:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dtkodak
For all you WA residents, where were you when the trail was going on? i had a 3man car pool. Not counting us, there was maybe 20 people there.

Next time show up to a ****ing 1hr hearing and show them we got numbers. it was sad. 20 ****ing ppl? and how many poker pros do we have in this state? how many people that are semi pros?

k thx. dumb ****s not getting off your ass.
lol if 5000 people showed up it wouldn't have made a difference.
10-01-2010 , 02:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeapFrog
attacking? Try informing. I have always said people should come to their own conclusions.
Well, I think you've been personally attacking me. That's my opinion. Sorry if you disagree with the proposed legislation, but I don't think that justifies making things personal.

Also, as for this issue, I've donated a lot of time to this effort since UIGEA passed. You have no idea how I feel about PS having to leave Washington state. FWIW, it's very upsetting to me. Someone even posted, "how am I going to tell my wife?" That really struck me.

You're dead wrong when you suggest that I'd throw anyone under any bus. I'm doing all I can to help establish a stable online poker base that can thrive across America. It's our opponents who are driving the downsides of any approach, not the proponents and certainly not me.

      
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