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Old 03-19-2017, 05:50 AM   #126
NoExit
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

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Originally Posted by chipmystak22 View Post
its actually worse. on top of that 65...they also take out 3% of your buy in that goes towards the staff and dealers or wahtever..so its another 9$! making these a 291+74 !!!

So is it still customary to tip when you cash in a tourney, if they already automatically take out all these fees some of which are reserved for the staff?
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Old 03-19-2017, 05:56 AM   #127
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Re: it's all the same to me

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Originally Posted by RedOak View Post
Yes, it matters a lot.
If you played a $365 event with 9.1% rake (like $331.8+ $32.2) and 6737 players, and won, the 1st place payout would be $269,458. If rake was 17.81% (like 300+65) 1st would pay $243,644. So that 8.7% increase in rake just cost you $25,814. Rake matters.

But as you say, if you do not cash, then yes, rake still matters as double joker pointed out. You would have $15 extra to spend if rake was $15 less.
Or if you don't cash but Jamie Gold wins the tourney. Now Jamie Gold will have $25,814 less to donate back to the poker economy.
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Old 03-19-2017, 06:10 AM   #128
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

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Originally Posted by namisgr11 View Post
Not sure what venues you're playing at, but at mine each re-entry comes with another payment of the rake.
my local, every day every tourney. I should have said rebuy not re-entry, there's no juice on rebuys.
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Old 03-19-2017, 01:19 PM   #129
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

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Originally Posted by Kelvis View Post
If they don't make any real money with hosting tournaments why would they do it? My guess is that the extra additional revenue from those 2000 players at the casino makes it quite worth it and basically makes a tournament a marketing trick that actually makes a profit on top too.
right that's why they do it.

but basically they're getting tons of people to pay 65 dollar (or 50 not counting dealer tokes) on 300 dollar buy in events. so why would they charge less?

if they cut that to 30 instead they would have to get at least double the entrants to make the same amount of money when you factor in their added expenses
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Old 03-19-2017, 02:03 PM   #130
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

lol u.s based tournaments lol 30% tax

you should worry more about the unbeatable state of U.S live mtts than tourney fees.
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Old 03-19-2017, 06:11 PM   #131
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

I played at the WSOP Circuit at Harrah's AC. The rake was high, I knew that, but what I didn't realize was that the structures were also atrocious. I could look past high rake if the structures are decent, but I ended up playing a lot less than I planned on as a result, just taking the time to relax and play cash.

I'm not likely to go back for such a series.

The nightly 130, had 4k starts, ending registration at blind level 400/800 (meaning you could buy in during the level before this, at 300/600.) That's worse than most MTTs labeled turbos, and the rake was 30 dollars (25 for the house, 5 for dealers)

The staff was great, FWIW, but the structures they work with are terrible.
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Old 03-19-2017, 06:39 PM   #132
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

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Originally Posted by Boney526 View Post
I played at the WSOP Circuit at Harrah's AC. The rake was high, I knew that, but what I didn't realize was that the structures were also atrocious. I could look past high rake if the structures are decent, but I ended up playing a lot less than I planned on as a result, just taking the time to relax and play cash.

I'm not likely to go back for such a series.

The nightly 130, had 4k starts, ending registration at blind level 400/800 (meaning you could buy in during the level before this, at 300/600.) That's worse than most MTTs labeled turbos, and the rake was 30 dollars (25 for the house, 5 for dealers)

The staff was great, FWIW, but the structures they work with are terrible.
You really can't expect a decent structure for a nightly $100 tourney in the middle of big serieis. I always found the structures in the actual ring events to be pretty good, but I haven't played one in a couple years, before they had all the re-entries.

I actually think the omnipresent re-entries they've added, with ever extended re-entry periods, are a MUCH greater concern to the health of tournaments than the slightly increased rake. They can really ruin the structure of a tournament.
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Old 03-19-2017, 10:20 PM   #133
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

Oh so many years ago Cowboy Wolford won a $220,000 tournament and before the night was over he lost back every penny of it at the crap table.

The Binions knew what they were doing.
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Old 03-19-2017, 11:27 PM   #134
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

back then we had a crew of gamblers that came to the tournament. the idea of starting it in 1970 was to get a gathering of gamblers of all kinds, and it did.. binions lost a lot of money every year on it, but hoped to make it up on the pit play and future customers..
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Old 03-20-2017, 12:41 AM   #135
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VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

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Originally Posted by hedgecock View Post
US English (which I have to employ half the time in my writing and editing work :'( ) is genuinely distressing to those of us from the UK!



A good little article about 'couldn't/could care less' here http://blog.dictionary.com/could-care-less/


Thanks for this interesting tidbit.


Sent from Fantasy Land
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Old 03-20-2017, 02:59 PM   #136
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

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tournaments had much fewer players back then mostly 200 or 100 or less. but the players were all real card players and higher stake gamblers. so they were much more card and gambling savey than todays fields.
lol
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Old 03-20-2017, 07:37 PM   #137
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

lol-ing at Zee is a really bad idea.
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Old 03-20-2017, 08:44 PM   #138
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

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lol-ing at Zee is a really bad idea.
Yes.

Please ignore the trolls, Ray. There aren't many folks who can share firsthand knowledge on topics like this, and many of us really appreciate your insight.
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Old 03-21-2017, 12:29 AM   #139
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

thanks guys,,,

i stand by it especially the higher stakes gamblers. the smallest no limit game we spread was 5,10, 25, blinds 2000 buyin, most bought 5,000. -- in 1970's dollars.

tournament players have much more info nowadays and can make better plays when headsup or short stacked for sure.

many of the countries and the worlds largest bookmakers came to the early wsop.

regularly we had at least 4 bookies in the game. most played quite well as they all had private games wherever they came from.

certainly the food was better by far.
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Old 03-21-2017, 02:50 AM   #140
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

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Originally Posted by NickMPK View Post
You really can't expect a decent structure for a nightly $100 tourney in the middle of big serieis. I always found the structures in the actual ring events to be pretty good, but I haven't played one in a couple years, before they had all the re-entries.

I actually think the omnipresent re-entries they've added, with ever extended re-entry periods, are a MUCH greater concern to the health of tournaments than the slightly increased rake. They can really ruin the structure of a tournament.
Nobody is expecting great structures on dailies, but these were the closest things to a hyper turbo I've ever played live, though. They easily could have ran the MTTs with 10-20k starts and given the structures, they wouldn't have lasted all that much longer.

In the ring events, I didn't like the structures, either. They weren't as bad, but they just weren't good. There was at least one event that was 2 days that they changed to one day (from what I heard from other players) because they were down to so few players. I ended up playing 2 365s instead of 4 as a result, because I just couldn't be bothered to play.
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Old 03-22-2017, 02:22 AM   #141
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

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Originally Posted by Boney526 View Post
I played at the WSOP Circuit at Harrah's AC. The rake was high, I knew that, but what I didn't realize was that the structures were also atrocious. I could look past high rake if the structures are decent, but I ended up playing a lot less than I planned on as a result, just taking the time to relax and play cash.

I'm not likely to go back for such a series.

The nightly 130, had 4k starts, ending registration at blind level 400/800 (meaning you could buy in during the level before this, at 300/600.) That's worse than most MTTs labeled turbos, and the rake was 30 dollars (25 for the house, 5 for dealers)

The staff was great, FWIW, but the structures they work with are terrible.
i just returned from AC for this also...the main problems are these:

yes the vig is too high, but like the above said, the amount of chips one received was BLATANTLY lower than in tourneys at other venues (i.e. borgata). example, on saturday mar 18th,

the harrahs circuit event tourney @5pm..
$300+65. 10k chips, 30 minute levels, rising to 40 min and 50 min very deep into the tourney

the borgata event @ 11am..
$350+50, 50k chips, 30 minute levels.

less vig by far, more chips by 5 TIMES. no comparison whatsoever. same with the 100+30 nightly circuit. 4k chips/20 min(this tourney had 12 entries saturday night).. as opposed to golden nugget 100+25 fri night with 25k/20 min and 60 entrants. realisitically who wants to play the circuit events with such a giant discrepancy? i played cash all weekend at harrahs and all i heard was how awful the circuit events were with no chips and people who wouldnt do it again.

Last edited by teach2121; 03-22-2017 at 02:28 AM.
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Old 03-22-2017, 10:26 AM   #142
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

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i just returned from AC for this also...the main problems are these:

yes the vig is too high, but like the above said, the amount of chips one received was BLATANTLY lower than in tourneys at other venues (i.e. borgata). example, on saturday mar 18th,

the harrahs circuit event tourney @5pm..
$300+65. 10k chips, 30 minute levels, rising to 40 min and 50 min very deep into the tourney

the borgata event @ 11am..
$350+50, 50k chips, 30 minute levels.

less vig by far, more chips by 5 TIMES. no comparison whatsoever. same with the 100+30 nightly circuit. 4k chips/20 min(this tourney had 12 entries saturday night).. as opposed to golden nugget 100+25 fri night with 25k/20 min and 60 entrants. realisitically who wants to play the circuit events with such a giant discrepancy? i played cash all weekend at harrahs and all i heard was how awful the circuit events were with no chips and people who wouldnt do it again.
This isn't really an apples-to-apples comparison, as the blinds start 2x higher in the Borgata tournament than the Circuit. The Borgata certainly is deeper, as you would expect given it is advertised as a "Monster Stack" tournament. The stated vig taken out by Borgata also does NOT include an additional 3% taken out of the prize pool for dealers (so really it's like $340+60, which is still lower, but only slightly). Finally, the Borgata tournament is a one-day tournament, while the Circuit is two days.

If people are complaining about having "no chips" in the Circuit event, it is likely because they are entering late or because of reentries. You start that event with 200 BBs, which seems like plenty to me. What makes the tournament shallow is people entering later with short stacks. As I mentioned before, the trend toward late reentries is much more damaging to tournaments than the vig.
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Old 03-22-2017, 03:34 PM   #143
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

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This isn't really an apples-to-apples comparison, as the blinds start 2x higher in the Borgata tournament than the Circuit. The Borgata certainly is deeper, as you would expect given it is advertised as a "Monster Stack" tournament. The stated vig taken out by Borgata also does NOT include an additional 3% taken out of the prize pool for dealers (so really it's like $340+60, which is still lower, but only slightly). Finally, the Borgata tournament is a one-day tournament, while the Circuit is two days.

If people are complaining about having "no chips" in the Circuit event, it is likely because they are entering late or because of reentries. You start that event with 200 BBs, which seems like plenty to me. What makes the tournament shallow is people entering later with short stacks. As I mentioned before, the trend toward late reentries is much more damaging to tournaments than the vig.
300+65 as opposed to 340+60 is a pretty big difference. and granted the circuit starts at 25/50 not 50/100...but that one level difference certainly doesnt make up for a 5x chip difference. Borgata also ran a 260+40 on friday morning, 40k chips, 25 and 30 min levels. there just seems to be wayyy too much of a discrepancy in the chips, vig etc to really prefer a circuit event to those. and yes, maybe 200 BBs is plenty, but it pales in comparison to tourneys across the street, which really is the problem. im fine with 10k starting stacks myself, thats what i was used to for many years...but now the landscape has changed, and the circuit isnt the only game in town, and imo it really is about what gives a player the most bang for their buck...and at least in AC, it isnt the WSOP.
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Old 03-22-2017, 07:26 PM   #144
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

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Originally Posted by madlex View Post
The lower the percentage of players who care about the rake, the higher your ROI.

Which recreational player cares about an extra $15 in rake when he can win 100k while having a good time?
10 people crammed onto one table is not a good time
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Old 03-22-2017, 07:38 PM   #145
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

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300+65 as opposed to 340+60 is a pretty big difference. and granted the circuit starts at 25/50 not 50/100...but that one level difference certainly doesnt make up for a 5x chip difference. Borgata also ran a 260+40 on friday morning, 40k chips, 25 and 30 min levels. there just seems to be wayyy too much of a discrepancy in the chips, vig etc to really prefer a circuit event to those. and yes, maybe 200 BBs is plenty, but it pales in comparison to tourneys across the street, which really is the problem. im fine with 10k starting stacks myself, thats what i was used to for many years...but now the landscape has changed, and the circuit isnt the only game in town, and imo it really is about what gives a player the most bang for their buck...and at least in AC, it isnt the WSOP.


If these circuit events have such bad structure in comparison to similar priced borgata events, why are they playing out over 2 days vs 1 day?
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Old 03-22-2017, 09:58 PM   #146
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

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If these circuit events have such bad structure in comparison to similar priced borgata events, why are they playing out over 2 days vs 1 day?
$365 circuit event saturday had only 115 entries, started at 5pm, went to final table after midnight, and last i heard final table was gonna be day 2, although there was talk they may just play it all in 1 day. sundays $580 had only 95 entries, went to day 2 with ten left again.
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Old 03-22-2017, 10:14 PM   #147
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

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10 people crammed onto one table is not a good time
How soon play is 9 handed is a huge factor for structures in lower buy ins.

Most live tournaments have levels with huge antes and it doesn't mix well if they are still 10 handed. Its pretty awful playing 2k/6k/12k 10 handed.

Most of the places I've played in the last few years go to 9 handed before ITM, but in the past I've had situations where I'd be at a 10 handed table instead of 7 or 8 on the bubble with huge antes.
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Old 03-23-2017, 12:41 PM   #148
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

I've seen reg. fees rise dramatically in the last ten years, to the point where it is very difficult to make a profit from tournaments. It used to be a 9-10% rake was standard for a $300 tourney in L.A. or Vegas, so maybe it cost $325 or $330 to play. I watched it go to $335, then $340 and now $350 is standard and $360-365 is not unheard of.

The casinos will continue to escalate the rake as long as players continue to enter. I vote with my wallet and have backed off from playing many events, preferring to wait for the WSOP which is not totally gouging the players (at least not as much anyway). You have noticed that the WSOP gets longer and with more events every year. When it first came to the RIO, a tournament player could get a $50 room rate, lol. Those days are long gone. It's ALL about the money baby!

I'm fortunate that I don't have to pursue poker as a career. I can see why so few players make it. The house is robbing everyone, just like in the pit. I've owned several businesses catering to the public and discovered that giving people a good deal does not go unnoticed. I'm looking forward to the day when one or two casinos start cutting the rake to attract more players. That would be a good business decision in the current climate imo.

By the way, the rake in cash games has escalated right along with it as well. In most of the small limit cash games, the whole table is stuck after several hours of play. At least in a time collection game you know where you're at going in.
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Old 03-23-2017, 08:53 PM   #149
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

thats right jay. they will reach a point of diminishing returns soon. and by their way of thinking they will raise it even more to make up for losses.
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Old 03-24-2017, 04:05 PM   #150
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

Pretty much. I'm not going back for another Cirtuit series unless they revamp the whole thing.... Do they not realize we have Parx, Borgata and even Foxwoods as competition?

I mean, they could have even held the events at the Wild West Poker room on the Boardwalk and that may have been a bit better, but I'm not sure. In either case, they've lost their damned minds.

If they're GOING to charge such rake, then these need to have longer levels. "2 days" doesn't really count if it's just the final table or if they're discussing making some of them 1 day at the last moment because they're too fast.
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