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Old 03-10-2017, 05:49 AM   #26
NoQuarter
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

Quote:
Originally Posted by WSOPShill
Are you aware of the margins consumer product manufacturer's realize?
WSOP does not offer a product, they offer a service. Two completely different industries, and as such, your attempt at whatever is comical.

Quote:
Would you say, has Apple lost it's mind?
Yes..Apples margains are substantial at 23% when compared with the 6.5%- 7.5% (depending on source) average net margain across all industries

https://www.forbes.com/sites/katieso...profitability/

Quote:
Wouldn't they realize if they lowered their price everyone would buy one?
Yes. Not everyone would buy, but with the brands popularity, the company would likely see a significant spike in sales if it were to impliment a noticable price decrease.

Quote:
I'm sure whoever is in charge of running the WSOP and determining its rake structure is gouging the **** out of the unsuspecting fun players to the limits of what that market will bear.
FYP

Also the bigwigs will realize eventually that true growth isnt measured by simply adding dollars to entry fees, but in fact measured by the adding of actual entries

Quote:
And, like what everyone else said, we're talking about rec players who rarely play, and don't give two ****s about $15 dollars.
Yea, it really isnt $15 in this particular case if rake is what it should be. Its actually an extra $35 if we compare to a rake that was set at a reasonable and consistant 10% on a $300 tournament. The rake was 5-10% for the longest time before and during the early years of the "boom". 10%-15% is sustainable moving forward imho. Wanna make more money? Advertise and promote better to get people in the seats. Do work, think.

Quote:
The better question is, have tourney pros lost their mind.
Actually no, not by a long shot.

Aww darn , with $30 rape your only bringing in $50,000 (2,000x$25) for the house and $10,000 (2,000x$5) for the dealers in 2 days as opposed to $120,000 for the house and $10,000 for the dealers in 2 days....awwwww

How much did you pull in slots and table game revenue in those same 2 days with 2,000+ extra peeps in the house?

There should be a max rape of $100 @ the 1k+ (shouldnt even be that high imo)...below that, 10-15% straight imo

Charging higher rake cause the money that goes to the prize pool is higher is absolute bs. Nothing is better at higher buyins other than level times and prize pool . Both of which are expected and obv at higher price points. Its about what we the players get, not what the house gets as the buyins increase (service industry?).

Greed gonna greed

Why isnt Allen ITT yet?

Last edited by NoQuarter; 03-10-2017 at 06:06 AM.
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Old 03-10-2017, 10:27 AM   #27
madlex
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

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Originally Posted by NoQuarter View Post
Aww darn , with $30 rape your only bringing in $50,000 (2,000x$25) for the house and $10,000 (2,000x$5) for the dealers in 2 days as opposed to $120,000 for the house and $10,000 for the dealers in 2 days....awwwww

How much did you pull in slots and table game revenue in those same 2 days with 2,000+ extra peeps in the house?
How many extra players would an event draw if it was $365 (335+30) instead of $365 (300+65)?
Of those players who would only play with the lower rake, what percentage would play slots and table games?
How much would each of that extra slots and table games players spend on average and how does that number compare to players who don't care about the rake?

Quote:
There should be a max rape of $100 @ the 1k+ (shouldnt even be that high imo)...below that, 10-15% straight imo
What do you want to regulate next? The max. amount a casino hosting the WSOPC is allowed to charge for a hotel room or the price they are allowed to charge if you order room service?

Maybe we should force airlines to lower their prices for flights that take people to WSOPC cities? Maybe gas prices at stations within 50 miles of the WSOPC? All of that would be so much better if people had a fundamental right to play in low rake poker tournaments!

Quote:
Charging higher rake cause the money that goes to the prize pool is higher is absolute bs. Nothing is better at higher buyins other than level times and prize pool.
You think a tournament shouldn't be allowed to charge a higher rake for tournaments that have longer levels? The fees should be the same no matter if they finish a 1000 player event in 1 or 3 days?

Quote:
Why isnt Allen ITT yet?
People like Allen are the prime example why lower rake wouldn't help the casinos bottom line. How much does he lose in the pit or spend in fine dining restaurants at a casino resort? Is he shopping at Gucci after busting from a tournament at the Bellagio?

I wish rake was lower. For cash games and tournaments, live and online. But those companies have (at least somewhat) smart people use (at least somewhat) sophisticated software to optimize their numbers. Maybe they are right, maybe they are wrong. Just one thing I know: We won't find out about that by pulling numbers out of a hat or use logical chains that end around the next corner.

Last edited by madlex; 03-10-2017 at 10:35 AM.
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Old 03-10-2017, 12:17 PM   #28
Black Aces 518
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

That post by NoQuarter is so absurd that I can only hope they were trolling.

The huge majority of players don't know or care what the rake is so there's fairly inelastic demand based on that. I had a discussion online with some players that were bitching about a WSOPC event's rake. I responded with "well then why play it" and the response was that the value of the event was too good to skip. So their argument was that the tournament was already so valuable to players that it was impossible to skip, but yet, the casino should just take money out of their pockets and give it to the players on top of that sick value. Why exactly would they do that?

Also LOL at saying that rake shouldn't be higher on more expensive tournaments, that the only difference is longer levels and more chips. Uh, yeah, that increases the overhead cost of the tournament. More tables in use, more dealer downs, etc.

Also a hearty LOL at the guy who thinks he has figured out what Apple hasn't re: iPhone pricing, etc.
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Old 03-10-2017, 01:00 PM   #29
chasepoker
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

Please google elasticises.

Free market gonna free market.
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Old 03-10-2017, 02:15 PM   #30
madlex
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

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Originally Posted by chasepoker View Post
Please google elasticises.
I did. Googles answer: Did you mean elasticised

I'd recommend looking for "elasticity" instead.
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Old 03-10-2017, 03:40 PM   #31
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

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Originally Posted by AllinNoRubbers View Post
ok so i decide i want to play in some opening event at harrahs for $365. i mean this is over ****ing 20 percent. is this not bananas?
Actually, the rake is 65/365 or 17.81% not "over 20 percent". But it is high. Anything over 12.5% is high IMHO. I remember 25 years ago standard rake was $200 + $20 on live events or 9.1%. Rake was also 5%, $2.50 max in cash games (and thank goodness no stupid jackpots!!!)

Here is a chart I made showing the effect of rake on a player's ROI:



For example, if you play online with an average rake of 9% and have a 27.08% ROI, then your ROI would be 40% if there was zero rake, and it would only be 14.9% for this $365 event above. Also, your after tax ROI would be -13% for the event above. But this aftertax number is actually based on a big 10k buyin event with over $5 mil to 1st where the top rate is 39.6%. It won't be that high for a $365 buyin event. The after tax ROI means your pretax ROI needs to be 43.47% if playing 10% rake events for your after tax ROI to be profitable at 5.99%. In other words, only a handful of players ever show lifetime net aftertax income from player poker tournaments.

To achieve a 27.08% ROI with 9% rake means you would have to get your money in on average as a 52.47% favorite. At 50% avg. rate, you would just be an average player and your ROI would be equal to the rake. If you could average just 55% favorite, your ROI would be 81% with 9% rake and you would be one of the top players in the world. So you should be happy to get allin with QQ vs AK if given the opportunity.
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Old 03-10-2017, 04:58 PM   #32
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

Its not the rake(at least directly) killing live tournaments. Its the shrinking player pool and complete desperation of those running the tournaments.

I'd happily pay the rake for a 500+ player freezeout. Not so much when they are forcing players to cannibalize themselves with re-entry and 5+ flights on any tournament with more than 100 players guaranteed.

Its a ****ing death spiral. Lower turnout so they try to generate more entries from the players they do get and it just repeats from there. The format appeals to essentially no one but circuit grinders.

Its insane. Guarantees on low buy ins have actually increased while the player pool has decreased.
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Old 03-10-2017, 05:25 PM   #33
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

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Originally Posted by TheJacob View Post
Its not the rake(at least directly) killing live tournaments. Its the shrinking player pool and complete desperation of those running the tournaments.

I'd happily pay the rake for a 500+ player freezeout. Not so much when they are forcing players to cannibalize themselves with re-entry and 5+ flights on any tournament with more than 100 players guaranteed.

Its a ****ing death spiral. Lower turnout so they try to generate more entries from the players they do get and it just repeats from there. The format appeals to essentially no one but circuit grinders.

Its insane. Guarantees on low buy ins have actually increased while the player pool has decreased.
So true. I don't usually play because I'm only going to have one bullet. Not going to ruin my fun with people who are willing to put in multiple bullets.
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Old 03-10-2017, 05:54 PM   #34
Aruj Reis
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

Formulas and spreadsheets are irrelevant here. Some large X percent of players are losing players. Negative ROI is negative ROI whether the house takes it or other players take it. If somebody has taken the effort to even consider ROI then they're that much closer to being in the (100 - X) percent of winning players.

I'm not saying rake is irrelevant to profitability, but most players don't even consider rake. As it has been mentioned already, they bet $365 with $94k up top, let's play.
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Old 03-10-2017, 07:02 PM   #35
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

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Originally Posted by NoQuarter View Post
WSOP does not offer a product, they offer a service. Two completely different industries, and as such, your attempt at whatever is comical.
Distinction without a difference. The principle is the same. Your attempt at explaining how business works is what's comical.

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Originally Posted by NoQuarter View Post
Yes. Not everyone would buy, but with the brands popularity, the company would likely see a significant spike in sales if it were to impliment a noticable price decrease.
Brilliant. Call up Apple and let them know your revolutionary idea. Maybe they should make their phone $1 and sell billions! The idea is to maximize profitability, not growth. See below:

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Originally Posted by Black Aces 518 View Post
Also a hearty LOL at the guy who thinks he has figured out what Apple hasn't re: iPhone pricing, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoQuarter View Post
Also the bigwigs will realize eventually that true growth isnt measured by simply adding dollars to entry fees, but in fact measured by the adding of actual entries
Unless executed properly, growth can hurt your profitability.
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Old 03-10-2017, 07:10 PM   #36
w00t
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it's all the same to me

-

If I don't cash, does it really matter if the rake is 10, 20, or 30%
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Old 03-10-2017, 07:11 PM   #37
SolarAU
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

Had some friends from back home buy into a $1200+$300 NLHE tournament this week.

Safe to say I nearly threw up when I saw that figure. 20% is beyond ludicrous.
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Old 03-10-2017, 07:40 PM   #38
chasepoker
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

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Originally Posted by madlex View Post
I did. Googles answer: Did you mean elasticised

I'd recommend looking for "elasticity" instead.
Please also google Pedantic.

Last edited by chasepoker; 03-10-2017 at 07:44 PM. Reason: elasticities
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Old 03-10-2017, 09:24 PM   #39
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

Quote:
Yes..Apples margains are substantial at 23% when compared with the 6.5%- 7.5% (depending on source) average net margain across all industries
Apple makes the majority of the profits in three enormous markets, smart phones, tablets, and pcs. in PCs it makes more than all the other competitors combined, in smartphones/tablets closer to 3x the rest of the market.

But please, coach them up on how to really run their businesses.
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Old 03-10-2017, 11:06 PM   #40
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Aces 518 View Post
That post by NoQuarter is so absurd that I can only hope they were trolling.

The huge majority of players don't know or care what the rake is so there's fairly inelastic demand based on that. I had a discussion online with some players that were bitching about a WSOPC event's rake. I responded with "well then why play it" and the response was that the value of the event was too good to skip. So their argument was that the tournament was already so valuable to players that it was impossible to skip, but yet, the casino should just take money out of their pockets and give it to the players on top of that sick value. Why exactly would they do that?

Also LOL at saying that rake shouldn't be higher on more expensive tournaments, that the only difference is longer levels and more chips. Uh, yeah, that increases the overhead cost of the tournament. More tables in use, more dealer downs, etc.

Also a hearty LOL at the guy who thinks he has figured out what Apple hasn't re: iPhone pricing, etc.
They answer like they have an MBA and are evaluating a business proposition.
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Old 03-11-2017, 04:26 AM   #41
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Re: it's all the same to me

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Originally Posted by w00t View Post
-

If I don't cash, does it really matter if the rake is 10, 20, or 30%
Here is how the prize pool changes based on different rake amounts. This assumes a large 10k buyin event like the WSOP main event with 6737 players paying 15% of the field and a 1.5x min cash. Note if top 9 not paid 1 mil, 9th would pay 700k and 8th would pay 901k with 6% rake.

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Old 03-11-2017, 04:57 AM   #42
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

It's actually higher, because they take 3% or maybe 6% from the prize pool as a tip. It's probably closer to a 285+80
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Old 03-11-2017, 07:41 AM   #43
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

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Originally Posted by gobbo View Post
It's actually higher, because they take 3% or maybe 6% from the prize pool as a tip. It's probably closer to a 285+80


This is wildly inaccurate as far as any WSOPC event I have been to in the past two years.


http://www.wsop.com/m/results/?tid=14990&grid=1208


You can do the math on this event and see the $300 goes into the prizepool. The structure sheets for those events also state the $65 includes all tokes for dealers/staff.
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Old 03-11-2017, 08:24 AM   #44
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

Whoops, disregard. Shouldn't have trusted what the person at the rio said.
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Old 03-11-2017, 11:03 AM   #45
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

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Shouldn't have trusted what the person at the rio said.
Isn't that a pretty good general rule of thumb?
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Old 03-11-2017, 11:49 AM   #46
PTLou
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

as is the case with many NVG threads, most that can be said is said in first 20 or so posts,

cliffs

1) WSOPc rakes $65 from their $365s because they can ( fyi.... even with current rake norms, nobody gets rich running live MTTs btw )

2) vast majority of players in these events are joe the rec, who plays a few events per year, and could care less about rake.

3) grinders play these fields while knowing and caring deeply about rake, because joe the rec fields offer great value.

so, no OP, WSOP has not lost their mind.
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Old 03-11-2017, 12:00 PM   #47
Trixie2
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

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Originally Posted by Tuxster View Post
It's called capitalism.

Harrah's is charging whatever they think the market will bare. And, so far, the market seems to be baring quite well -- or else they wouldn't be having the tournaments.
Truxster is the winner!!!!!! They have done their research and run the numbers and done the projections...

But you forget most poker players aren't into the concept of a business making money.

Maybe someone will start up a dollar poker club based on Dollar Shave Club's business model...
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Old 03-11-2017, 04:42 PM   #48
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

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Originally Posted by chipmystak22 View Post
its actually worse. on top of that 65...they also take out 3% of your buy in that goes towards the staff and dealers or wahtever..so its another 9$! making these a 291+74 !!!


Wrong. Why spout lies if you are clueless on a topic?
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Old 03-11-2017, 04:45 PM   #49
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Re: it's all the same to me

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Originally Posted by w00t View Post
-

If I don't cash, does it really matter if the rake is 10, 20, or 30%


Yes it does. If it was 350 instead of 365 youd have 15 more in your pocket after busting.
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Old 03-11-2017, 04:46 PM   #50
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

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Originally Posted by gobbo View Post
It's actually higher, because they take 3% or maybe 6% from the prize pool as a tip. It's probably closer to a 285+80


Why do clueless people on this topuc keep spouting garbage.
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