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Old 03-09-2017, 01:38 AM   #1
AllinNoRubbers
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VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

ok so i decide i want to play in some opening event at harrahs for $365. i then look at the structure to see that only $300 of that is for the prize pool. WHAT? i will admit i mostly play online and live plo. so i may be out of touch with live tourament fees. is this not a ridiculous fee? i am aware it includes tip but i have been under the impression 3% of winnings is fair to tip dealers. i mean this is over ****ing 20 percent. is this not bananas? am i just naive? last tourney i played was a 350+50(almost two years ago) so i guess this isnt too far off the standard, but who is playing in these and why? there has to be some way for casinos to make the fees more reasonable. i understand it takes a lot of dealers to run the tourney and a few directors etc. but dont casinos realize they would get more players with less fees. and at least a small percentage of these guys would end up in pits or playing cash games round the clock? it's called a loss leader people. maybe other people arent as cheap as me idk. but this just seems stupid.
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Old 03-09-2017, 01:51 AM   #2
TheChamp11
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

You're right. $65 rake on a $300 buyin is borderline criminal. I don't understand why anyone plays these.
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Old 03-09-2017, 02:55 AM   #3
PTLou
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

Quote:
Originally Posted by AllinNoRubbers View Post
. but dont casinos realize they would get more players with less fees..
maybe a few, but doubtful to any meaningful degree

Number of entries for a $300+65 500K Guarantee = 1,956

Number of entries for a $320+45 500K Guarantee = about the same

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheChamp11 View Post
You're right. $65 rake on a $300 buyin is borderline criminal. I don't understand why anyone plays these.
because $300 x 1,956 x 16% = $93,888

$93,888 > $365
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Old 03-09-2017, 03:03 AM   #4
onguard
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

Is why backers are in such high demand...
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Old 03-09-2017, 03:19 AM   #5
igotcars4u
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

The WSOP is filled with recreational poker players there to play a game they love for 4-5 days, and "who knows, I may get lucky and win a bracelet". Recreational players could care less about rake and the WSOP knows that. The WSOP did not design this tourney for die hard cash game pro's or any other professional poker player, it's designed for Joe Blow average recreational poker player. I believe the rake could be 35% and the WSOP would still fill the house with players.
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Old 03-09-2017, 04:02 AM   #6
DK Barrel
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

but that hendon mob
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Old 03-09-2017, 04:12 AM   #7
NickMPK
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

I think this has basically been the rake for a few years now at all the Circuit stops, and pretty close to the standard rake for this sort of tournament in the US.

It's actually a lot more fair than the old system in which a lower rake was advertised, but then individual locations could tack on a surprise dealer add-on that the players weren't even told about until they were at the table.
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Old 03-09-2017, 05:24 AM   #8
coach999
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

Quote:
Originally Posted by igotcars4u View Post
The WSOP is filled with recreational poker players there to play a game they love for 4-5 days, and "who knows, I may get lucky and win a bracelet". Recreational players could care less about rake and the WSOP knows that. The WSOP did not design this tourney for die hard cash game pro's or any other professional poker player, it's designed for Joe Blow average recreational poker player. I believe the rake could be 35% and the WSOP would still fill the house with players.
sure if it was like that all these years. But to increase the rake only recently is a ripoff. You know it, I know it, everyone knows it.
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Old 03-09-2017, 05:42 AM   #9
pokerprayer
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

rake at goliath tournaments are out of hand as well..
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Old 03-09-2017, 11:43 AM   #10
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

Quote:
Originally Posted by PTLou View Post


because $300 x 1,956 x 16% = $93,888

$93,888 > $365
There's the answer. I don't play the tourneys at my room - Talking Stick - bec I did the math re the fee and realized how many tourneys I'd have to cash just to fade that v. the opportunity cost of playing cash instead. Occasionally someone asks why I don't play them and I run the numbers for them and I get a glazed look for my trouble. The reg tourney players are after a score for the day, that's it.
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Old 03-09-2017, 11:50 AM   #11
GazzyB123
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

Quote:
Originally Posted by igotcars4u View Post
The WSOP is filled with recreational poker players there to play a game they love for 4-5 days, and "who knows, I may get lucky and win a bracelet". Recreational players could care less about rake and the WSOP knows that. The WSOP did not design this tourney for die hard cash game pro's or any other professional poker player, it's designed for Joe Blow average recreational poker player. I believe the rake could be 35% and the WSOP would still fill the house with players.
Couldn't care less.

Couldn't care less.

They COULDN'T care less.
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Old 03-09-2017, 12:01 PM   #12
hedgecock
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

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Originally Posted by GazzyB123 View Post
Couldn't care less.

Couldn't care less.

They COULDN'T care less.
US English (which I have to employ half the time in my writing and editing work :'( ) is genuinely distressing to those of us from the UK!

A good little article about 'couldn't/could care less' here http://blog.dictionary.com/could-care-less/
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Old 03-09-2017, 12:12 PM   #13
madlex
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

The lower the percentage of players who care about the rake, the higher your ROI.

Which recreational player cares about an extra $15 in rake when he can win 100k while having a good time?
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Old 03-09-2017, 01:39 PM   #14
Atarirob
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

Because there are a whole mess of poker players who don't care about the rake since they only play a $300-500-$1000 buyin only 1-3 times a year. It's there chance to win a WSOP ring or bracelet to brag about to the local friends at home.


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Old 03-09-2017, 02:40 PM   #15
auralex14
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

Quote:
Originally Posted by AllinNoRubbers View Post
dont casinos realize they would get more players with less fees
I doubt this is true, and if it is, it would have to be enough players to offset the lost revenue of the higher rake.

Are you aware of the margins consumer product manufacturer's realize? Would you say, has Apple lost it's mind? Wouldn't they realize if they lowered their price everyone would buy one?

I'm sure whoever is in charge of running the WSOP and determining its rake structure has done plenty of analysis to determine what rake maximizes their profitability.

And, like what everyone else said, we're talking about rec players who rarely play, and don't give two ****s about $15 dollars. There's probably room for even higher rake.

The better question is, have tourney pros lost their mind.
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Old 03-09-2017, 03:13 PM   #16
Czar Chasm
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

Quote:
Originally Posted by hedgecock View Post
US English (which I have to employ half the time in my writing and editing work :'( ) is genuinely distressing to those of us from the UK!

A good little article about 'couldn't/could care less' here http://blog.dictionary.com/could-care-less/
It's quite obviously a sarcastic expression not meant to be taken literally...
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Old 03-09-2017, 05:45 PM   #17
onguard
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

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Originally Posted by auralex14 View Post
The better question is, have tourney pros lost their mind.
No, they all figured out not to play on their own dime for a reason.
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Old 03-09-2017, 09:48 PM   #18
chipmystak22
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

its actually worse. on top of that 65...they also take out 3% of your buy in that goes towards the staff and dealers or wahtever..so its another 9$! making these a 291+74 !!!
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Old 03-09-2017, 09:56 PM   #19
pokervangelist
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

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Originally Posted by DK Barrel View Post
but that hendon mob
And being in Poker News and Maybe TV then become famous oh the dream of donkaments
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Old 03-10-2017, 01:27 AM   #20
NickMPK
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

Quote:
Originally Posted by chipmystak22 View Post
its actually worse. on top of that 65...they also take out 3% of your buy in that goes towards the staff and dealers or wahtever..so its another 9$! making these a 291+74 !!!
I don't think that's correct. The WSOPC changed their buy-in structure a few years back so that the single "administrative fee" includes both the rake and the dealer/staff fee.
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Old 03-10-2017, 02:39 AM   #21
Tuxster
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

Quote:
Originally Posted by AllinNoRubbers View Post
ok so i decide i want to play in some opening event at harrahs for $365. i then look at the structure to see that only $300 of that is for the prize pool. WHAT? i will admit i mostly play online and live plo. so i may be out of touch with live tourament fees. is this not a ridiculous fee?
It's called capitalism.

Harrah's is charging whatever they think the market will bare. And, so far, the market seems to be baring quite well -- or else they wouldn't be having the tournaments.
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Old 03-10-2017, 02:50 AM   #22
Tuxster
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

Quote:
Originally Posted by igotcars4u View Post
The WSOP is filled with recreational poker players there to play a game they love for 4-5 days, and "who knows, I may get lucky and win a bracelet". Recreational players could care less about rake and the WSOP knows that. The WSOP did not design this tourney for die hard cash game pro's or any other professional poker player, it's designed for Joe Blow average recreational poker player. I believe the rake could be 35% and the WSOP would still fill the house with players.
Your argument is kind of cynical.

Surely, your average professional cash game or tournament player would have no problem paying a 20% fee.

I would think the average recreational player wouldn't have the bankroll to play such an extravagantly priced tournament, whether they are just doing it for the love of the game.
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Old 03-10-2017, 02:55 AM   #23
Tuxster
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atarirob View Post
Because there are a whole mess of poker players who don't care about the rake since they only play a $300-500-$1000 buyin only 1-3 times a year. It's there chance to win a WSOP ring or bracelet to brag about to the local friends at home.


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...and their statiscal chances of winning a bracelet or a ring or even making a final table or even cashing are?
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Old 03-10-2017, 03:08 AM   #24
NerdSuperfly
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

Quote:
Originally Posted by coach999 View Post
sure if it was like that all these years. But to increase the rake only recently is a ripoff. You know it, I know it, everyone knows it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuxster View Post
...and their statiscal chances of winning a bracelet or a ring or even making a final table or even cashing are?
don't know why anybody tries to make an argument here ... yeah, live pros and all the online champions, need every extra penny to make a living ... but again, the average joe couldn't care less

btw

Quote:
Originally Posted by hedgecock View Post
US English (which I have to employ half the time in my writing and editing work :'( ) is genuinely distressing to those of us from the UK!

A good little article about 'couldn't/could care less' here http://blog.dictionary.com/could-care-less/
best (or at least most valuable) post itt so far
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Old 03-10-2017, 03:18 AM   #25
Tuxster
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

[QUOTE=NerdSuperfly;51848541]don't know why anybody tries to make an argument here ... yeah, live pros and all the online champions, need every extra penny to make a living ... but again, the average joe couldn't care less :rolleye

Yeah, I guess at the end of the day or night, MTTs really are just one big lottery-of-hope potential score.
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