Paying out 15% of the field is a form of rake imo, because 98% of the players that cash are basically just getting a couple of bullets to get raked again.

Perfect example Marcello Campbell http://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/player.php?a=r&n=489281

What are the chances Marcello ever returns for another tournament? He got scraps after grinding through 7k players.

Or how bout Brian Schreiber? http://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/player.php?a=r&n=487705
Out of almost 22k players he got 300 and just got a couple of buyins, based on how many times they re-entered its possible to get in the top 1% and still not make profit.

Its been almost a year, Both Brian and Marcello have nothing new on their hendon mobs. I dont blame them, who would want to grind multiple days with those type of payouts?

I did notice the hygiene standards of dealers has been better, so its not all bad.

I dont plan on playing any poker tournaments at the wsop untill,

1. They find a way to have better retention and training of dealers.
2. Pay out 10%, with a 2x buyin min cash.
3. Stop taxing All American Dave so much so his prices drop a bit.

Poll speaks for itself,
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/61...times-1630593/

That was also at a time when players used their winnings in the pits and on hookers & blow and not to invest into their future outside of gambling.
Are you willing to pay extra rake for that? Spending money on dealer retention and training costs money and we all know that's not coming out of Caesars pockets.

It's as simple as this.

It's also really difficult to prove out 1:1 rate reduction / volume increase. I've done it many times for my company and it never gets through, most of the time correctly so but even the times where a solid case is made, executives are pretty paranoid to ever reduce rate when there is sufficient demand at the current level.

To do so requires a major paradigm shift, like what Amazon did to retail, or what the crash did to housing.

Most don't have this perspective, but we are really fortunate that the casino spreads/maintains a game that is profitable to educated players. I consider myself very lucky that I 1) discovered poker and 2) a capitalistic enterprise provides a game that is profitable to me.

I do enjoy the Ray Zee stories.

all of this especially the bolded.

The argument works both ways and always will. By paying 15%, an extra 1000+ players cash in the Colossus. These players are much more likely to play in another tournament than if they they had gotten nothing. For the recreational player, the experience of cashing is often much more important than the amount of money they make (assuming you're not talking about final-table type money).

I would actually prefer the WSOP switch to paying 20% of the field, but make the mincash like 0.2x the buy-in. This would eliminate a lot of the unnatural pay distortions and stalling on the bubble.

Quit whining about donkaments and play cash games.

FFS, do we really need another ****ing thread about how players feel entitled to tell companies how to run their ****ing business. Rake has gone up across the whole industry and apparently guys who play for a living know how to run the business better. I think it's pretty safe to say they have you uneducated ****s by the balls and you all know you could never get a real job so they'll just grind you down to your last penny.

/thread

2017, Marcello and Brian didnt return to the wsop, I could find another 500 players that grinded through 7k-20k players only to receive a couple of bullets, and in 2018 those 500 players wont return to the wsop.

On the other hand, the Wynn/Encore went back to paying 10%, 15k starting stacks, the prize pools were usually double the guarantee and some players were willing to wait on an hour long alternate list. If the wynn had more space they could easily triple the guarantees.

No, the argument doesn't work both ways, people play tournaments to have their ego's stroked, they play for the action, the gamble, the excitement, cashing people for less then 2x the buyin takes away from all of those things. If I told my wife I grinded multiple days through 20k players and only got a 4-5x my initial ivestment she would divorce me.

Recs and pros alike want 10% payouts with 2x buyin mincash, the wynn/encore numbers speak for themselves.

Unbeliveble

Its not about "entitled players telling companies how to run their f***ing business" its about consumers holding companies accountable for providing a decent product over maximizing their profits in the short term. Most CEO's only work for more then a couple of years, because they swoop in like vultures and just say gimme gimme gimme, then they fly off leaving a carcass.

The mentality/ education of typical CEO has been to maximize profits over everything else for immediate short term gain, sustainability is not a part of their thought process.

Lets continue this experiment into 2018, lets take Darren Arimoto a vegas local who can easily drive down to the WSOP next year, http://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/player.php?a=r&n=551832

He grinded through 9K players and cashed for less then 2x the buyin on a $365 18%rakefest for his first lifetime cash, lets see if he returns.

And lets take Russell Berger, http://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/player.php?a=r&n=551833
He also grinded through 9k players for $678 first lifetime cash.

Lets see if Darren, Russell, Marcello or Brian return to the WSOP in 2018.

Wouldn't be so bad if they actually had somewhere to eat and somewhere to piss.

You can't look at someones Hendon Mob and assume they didn't play. Mine looks like I didn't play the WSOP 3 years in a row even though I fired 5 events every year in that span.

Been around WSOP 10+ years now and I can say recs seem to like the 15% overall. I think the ME has been bigger the last 2 years partly because of it.

FWIW, WSOP rake is in line or in many cases cheaper then other events around town. WSOP has some problems but that really isn't one of them.

I will say, everything about the Wynn series was top notch.

Looking at the number of players in the ME this year, recs can't be too unhappy with paying 15%?

I think you underestimate the number of players who just like to cash in a tournament. Which btw is a good thing for pros who play to win.

Exactly. This is the dirty little secret regarding blind structures over the past few years. I skip many events when super late entry allowed (I think PH Goliath allowed buy-in at 5x BB when 80%+ field already eliminated...what a joke), but nobody ever talks about it (how bad it is).

i like and think tournaments should be top heavy. but i also meet lots of not so high stakes players or players that only get to the wsop few times in their lives, and they are mostly just looking to cash. as cashing to them is a giant win against many pro's.

I agree that 15% payouts in the ME make sense, you can tell by the joy in the room when the bubble bursts, but 15% payouts dont make sense for lower buyin evets, and they clearly dont appeal to most people that enter turbo events and bounty events, that should be obv

I've already proven in previous posts above how miserable the payouts are, like Marcello Campbell who made a 5k profit after grinding past 7.1k players in the million maker. SEVEN THOUSAND PLAYERS FFS

They take out all the meat out of purse, its so obv to me its not even close. I'm certain I've talked to more pros and recs about this then anyone else posting itt, because I've been the most adamantly against the 15% payouts then anyone I've ever met, and I'm never playing a live MTT with that payout.

And yet, players STILL show up to play despite seeing the payout and structures in advance. Hard to have sympathy for a player who sees the 15% and still plays and cashes...

You make the argument that marcello grinded past 7k players like he did it himself. He was in a group of players who lasted that long into the tournament.

So what man.

And waiting in line to register they are all delusional enough to declare that they are going to win first place and the million dollar payout, instead of grind through 7k players and just get a couple of bullets back to spew off in more events.

They should pay 10% with 2x buyin min cash, and its not even close, I made my case, Im done.

The case is that its multiple days, its extremely hard, he may be in for multiple buyins, and his payout is depressing, but if they would have paid 10% with a 2x min cash he would be getting 5 figures, not as depressing.

I already answered that, people play MTT for the action, the gamble, to have their egos stroked, when you min cash 15% of the field for a 1.3x min cash it takes away from all the things people show up for. I made my case, I'm done.

Who says those listed did not play this year and just did not cash.

I don't even have a mob page since the only tournaments I ever have cashed are local dailies even tho I've played a few WPT and WSOP Circut events and the Main in 2012. just never cashed any of them.

The whole purpose of multiple buy ins is to win the tournament.

He took his best shot, he lost.

Now, somehow you want to make it magically profitable to make the final table, and the consolation prizes as well.

I'm even curious what you think his payout should be after besting 7k players? 10k, 15k? Whatever you think it should be, it's still not going to be on some grand magnatude scale.

let's hope that as many winning players as possible follow your path.