View: Poker sites should start accepting Bitcoins
Monte, I appreciate these questions, didn't before but I think you are good for the game, even if you are a skeptic (not saying you are).
Bitcoin is meant to bring stability whether in the form of price, or through technology, here is an example https://coinapult.com/
I tried the site, its incredible simple, and quite fast to use. You send bitcoin to the address wallet they give you, and then you can press a lock button vs gold euro usd etc, and lock in your price vs what you choose.
The granularity, decentralized aspect, and automated features that digital currencies provide create the most stable asset/commodity we can hope for today. But more importantly I would prob ask you (or I could say I have been arguing this point) what would be the effect on the stability (or value) of bitcoin if the entire poker industry embraced it?
Because of this I think your question/point (although valid today in a vaccum) is really self fulfilling (I don't know the words I want) in that yes its not stable today, however stability is much related to our adoption of it.
You wouldn't necessarily want to convert to bitcoin to buy something, however in general companies would (or should) give a discount on bitcoin to the point that people would be incentivized to do so. They might be able to do this because of the costs saved and the "advertisement" they can get from accepting bitcoin. Again though you would be right to point out today is not quite that time for the benefits for the company (although if they are speculators it might be a great time.)
For players the reduced cost and faster transactions allows players to hold more of their wealth not on poker sites and so they can find better places for their monies. Both sides stand to gain, even if sites won't share this reduced cost, it will eventually allow some to deposit and play that wouldn't before because of such a threshold.
We might ask why should one use the internet or a mobile, and in truth one can function without these things, yet there are many obvious benefits to using them. Bitcoin has levels of adoption, so early adopters should be speculators looking for such volitility, but at some point in its adoption level its pretty obvious there will be collective gain, like any other technology.
As for dell as an example, they might choose to pay their employees in bitcoin, new software/business models are coming out (I saw one for this yesterday) that allow business to seamlessly cross over to this (or hybrid) system. The granularity allows employers to auto pay employees for a specific task or hours (or minutes) worked. This gives possibility to increase efficiency on both ends. So employees can choose how much they want to be paid in bitcoin and so then there is no "converting" for either the company or the employee as they can choose to save the bitcoin or spend it where it is accepted.
Bitcoin is meant to bring stability whether in the form of price, or through technology, here is an example https://coinapult.com/
I tried the site, its incredible simple, and quite fast to use. You send bitcoin to the address wallet they give you, and then you can press a lock button vs gold euro usd etc, and lock in your price vs what you choose.
The granularity, decentralized aspect, and automated features that digital currencies provide create the most stable asset/commodity we can hope for today. But more importantly I would prob ask you (or I could say I have been arguing this point) what would be the effect on the stability (or value) of bitcoin if the entire poker industry embraced it?
Because of this I think your question/point (although valid today in a vaccum) is really self fulfilling (I don't know the words I want) in that yes its not stable today, however stability is much related to our adoption of it.
You wouldn't necessarily want to convert to bitcoin to buy something, however in general companies would (or should) give a discount on bitcoin to the point that people would be incentivized to do so. They might be able to do this because of the costs saved and the "advertisement" they can get from accepting bitcoin. Again though you would be right to point out today is not quite that time for the benefits for the company (although if they are speculators it might be a great time.)
For players the reduced cost and faster transactions allows players to hold more of their wealth not on poker sites and so they can find better places for their monies. Both sides stand to gain, even if sites won't share this reduced cost, it will eventually allow some to deposit and play that wouldn't before because of such a threshold.
We might ask why should one use the internet or a mobile, and in truth one can function without these things, yet there are many obvious benefits to using them. Bitcoin has levels of adoption, so early adopters should be speculators looking for such volitility, but at some point in its adoption level its pretty obvious there will be collective gain, like any other technology.
As for dell as an example, they might choose to pay their employees in bitcoin, new software/business models are coming out (I saw one for this yesterday) that allow business to seamlessly cross over to this (or hybrid) system. The granularity allows employers to auto pay employees for a specific task or hours (or minutes) worked. This gives possibility to increase efficiency on both ends. So employees can choose how much they want to be paid in bitcoin and so then there is no "converting" for either the company or the employee as they can choose to save the bitcoin or spend it where it is accepted.
As well, the poker industry is, to quote a fellow Canadian, a nothingburger in terms of impact to the general economy.
This industry has the target market for bitcoin users. Young males, who are not employed, nor entrepreneurial, who have a libertarian approach in general are a much higher percentage of the poker population than the general population. A few sites have adopted them, including a couple bitcoin only sites, but none have really gained a ton of traction, and bitcoins graph for 2014 if it were a poker player would make the best/worst sharkscope thread, and that certainly cannot help with its adoption.
I still have not been given a good method how a normal person uses bitcoins to buy from Dell in a way that is competitive to just using a credit card. I understand why all-in bitcoiners and those who earn bitcoins use them.
They might be able to do this because of the costs saved and the "advertisement" they can get from accepting bitcoin. Again though you would be right to point out today is not quite that time for the benefits for the company (although if they are speculators it might be a great time.)
The granularity allows employers to auto pay employees for a specific task or hours (or minutes) worked. This gives possibility to increase efficiency on both ends. So employees can choose how much they want to be paid in bitcoin and so then there is no "converting" for either the company or the employee as they can choose to save the bitcoin or spend it where it is accepted.
All the best.
Perhaps a few other countries if the banking is awkward with the sites.
Realistically, not that much impact. Even if somehow every site started accepting bitcoins that hardly means that everyone would use them. Many have no real incentive to use them (assuming they do not care about the politics of bitcoins).
As well, the poker industry is, to quote a fellow Canadian, a nothingburger in terms of impact to the general economy.
This industry has the target market for bitcoin users. Young males, who are not employed, nor entrepreneurial, who have a libertarian approach in general are a much higher percentage of the poker population than the general population. A few sites have adopted them, including a couple bitcoin only sites, but none have really gained a ton of traction, and bitcoins graph for 2014 if it were a poker player would make the best/worst sharkscope thread, and that certainly cannot help with its adoption.
This is not quite a check/egg dilemma. For mainstream to adopt it it would have to be quite a bit more stable than it is now. I am not even sure how to debate the point that a "currency" that changes value by 50%+ in months and 25%+ in weeks is not typical, so if that is a more stable situation I am not sure what to say on that as it needs to get quite a bit more stable for regular folk to be willing to try it.
I still have not been given a good method how a normal person uses bitcoins to buy from Dell in a way that is competitive to just using a credit card. I understand why all-in bitcoiners and those who earn bitcoins use them.
Well, in theory they have a bit of margin to work with compared to credit card processing fees, however I am not sure how a company like Dell handled fraud type situations with Bitcoins. If they sell 500 computers to a guy who stole bitcoins from someone who wants to get goods to flip that probably will not look good in the newspapers if it happens.
I understand why Dell is trying them out, but I would be surprised if they ever used it as a major advertising point in the near to medium future. The legal status of them are still a bit vague, and again the mainstream has not really adopted them for all the reasons discussed.
I guess they could, but I am not sure why they would for now unless their Michael Dell is a bitcoin fanatic. He no longer has to deal with Carl Icahn, and the company is private so in theory they can do it if they want.
thx
Nothing to grow out of - its fun as long as they are entertaining to tweak. The crazy manifesto guys are even better. With some all you have to do is say a single word like "Nash" and they will go off for an hour! That is part of the charm of the human condition, and if we all grow out of appreciating it then we have become soulless robots.
I agree the Canadian cell market is annoying, though 3 years ago with research I found a business plan from Bell that was never advertised that I knew then was literally years ahead of its time - and it still is quite a bit better than the advertised ones today. Even systems like that can be manipulated with proper research at times, and one of the challenges the crypto currencies will have is the established structures will become more competitive on the benefit side of bitcoins (processing costs for instance).
This one you are basically wrong. Poker players are not a dense hub, rather they are more like a scattered population that happen to play the same game. In terms of being tech savvy I am not sure they are any better than average people of the same general age.
I can see some usage of individual players (mainly Americans), but I see no advantage to using bitcoins for staking until all rooms get rid of player transfers (which are obviously better for it) and e-wallets like Skrill. Using Skrill for a VIP is essentially free and the players get benefits whenever they deposit onto the sites.
Also, based on my experiences teaching players things like Americans signing up for Intertops, and creating a proper Skrill account - I can honestly say that trying to teach some players how to use bitcoins as part of a stake would be a lot less fun than it seems.
Additionally, the professional backers want a proper paper trail of every transaction for bookkeeping and tax purposes, which one gets with transfers within a site or on an e-wallet, broken down by name/user name. Bitcoins anonymous quality does not work well in this regard.
You can believe that Bitcoins will be useful for staking people on a ton of different rooms, but almost no large staking businesses back people in that manner - that is more family/friend style staking where they give a buddy $1,000 and see how he does with it with no structured reporting.
It is basically nothing in the general scheme of the economy. Your analogy is a stretch. ABC news had a long segment on some woman who stole about $3,000 in her government job. Made for an amusing and flashy story. Politicians often times work with the same agenda.
Tell that to the people who saw all the hype for bitcoins and bought them at about $1,000 each.
Perhaps, or also the established institutions will start incorporating some of the benefits of that product in what they offer as well. Bitcoins may change banking, but that does not mean they will be the ones who survive in a meaningful manner to benefit from that change. I am not saying that to be mean toward bitcoins - many innovative ideas and products encounter that fate.
There are many ways that people can secure their email and poker accounts yet we see tons of hacked stories because people were too lazy to know about an RSA token. Even Daniel Negreanu was hacked in that manner.
Stealing bitcoins becomes a lot easier when more regular folk use them. The current user base is well above average in terms of security.
I agree Dell would cover the cost, but then it eventually comes down to is it worth it? Again, once regular folk use bitcoins the incidents of fraud will definitely rise.
Perhaps it can work. Banks cover the costs of most things to customers using online banking because of the savings they get from not having to have as much invested in brick and mortar operations, but I am not quite sure if that will apply to a company like Dell.
Give it a shot and try to organize employees at a company like Dell. That will likely give you a first hand real world experience about why your theoreticals will not always play out as you expect once you start incorporating human behavior into the equation.
Thanks for the debate, but I know when I meet someone who is quite capable of talking even more then me. I always have fun with the manifesto crowd, but they literally can talk to the end of time since they live and breath their issue, so I will bid you best of luck in your journey, and to end it I will offer you a slightly ajusted poem from Nash. OK, it is not the Nash you get all excited about, but it is close enough
"The Bitcoin"
Some primal bitcoin knocked on wood
And tasted it, and found it good,
And that is why your Cousin May
Fell through the parlor floor today.
All the best.
Yup. And many countries are "awkward" in some form. In canada the cell phone market is "monopolized" by 3 major players and without using a mainstream bank getting money onto the phone is next to impossible. It's the "weaker" countries that stand to gain from and adopt this tech the quickest and the most. They also generally will lack the bureaucratic traps and pitfalls that other more developed countries inherently possess.
At this point its true, but the poker players are a densely connected hub, and comparatively quite tech/financial savvy. The poker world seems like quite an interesting target market for bitcoin for this reason. Staking for example, will be radically changed and drastically more efficient with this technology.
I can see some usage of individual players (mainly Americans), but I see no advantage to using bitcoins for staking until all rooms get rid of player transfers (which are obviously better for it) and e-wallets like Skrill. Using Skrill for a VIP is essentially free and the players get benefits whenever they deposit onto the sites.
Also, based on my experiences teaching players things like Americans signing up for Intertops, and creating a proper Skrill account - I can honestly say that trying to teach some players how to use bitcoins as part of a stake would be a lot less fun than it seems.
Additionally, the professional backers want a proper paper trail of every transaction for bookkeeping and tax purposes, which one gets with transfers within a site or on an e-wallet, broken down by name/user name. Bitcoins anonymous quality does not work well in this regard.
You can believe that Bitcoins will be useful for staking people on a ton of different rooms, but almost no large staking businesses back people in that manner - that is more family/friend style staking where they give a buddy $1,000 and see how he does with it with no structured reporting.
Stability isn't necessarily the key as much as accessibility I think. The technology when linked together, eliminates any worry of stability. It does however need much work on user friendliness. I have seen a plethora of projects that make using bitcoin far more easier than using any conventional method. For the unbanked peoples of this world, to which their are many, this becomes a no brainer.
I think in theory there is a giant margin, depending on who gets the savings. Fraud is a big topic, but I'm not sure its fair to call it a bitcoin problem (I'd agree with you that public opinion isn't always logical though). There are many ways to secure your bitcoins like multisignature, and there are many more available each day. Stealing someones bitcoins is not an easy task. As for dell's response, I'm sure they could cover the cost, I'm assuming the issue will be less than fraud with standard monies. Nonetheless it will be interesting to see with the empirical data.
Stealing bitcoins becomes a lot easier when more regular folk use them. The current user base is well above average in terms of security.
I agree Dell would cover the cost, but then it eventually comes down to is it worth it? Again, once regular folk use bitcoins the incidents of fraud will definitely rise.
Perhaps it can work. Banks cover the costs of most things to customers using online banking because of the savings they get from not having to have as much invested in brick and mortar operations, but I am not quite sure if that will apply to a company like Dell.
Well their employees might ask for it, and again the reduced cost of using a system would be beneficial enough in itself. But also a super granular payment system for an employer to employees also has financial benefit. Much like a cell phone payment system or internet connection that only charges you for exactly what you use when you use it.
thx
thx
Thanks for the debate, but I know when I meet someone who is quite capable of talking even more then me. I always have fun with the manifesto crowd, but they literally can talk to the end of time since they live and breath their issue, so I will bid you best of luck in your journey, and to end it I will offer you a slightly ajusted poem from Nash. OK, it is not the Nash you get all excited about, but it is close enough
"The Bitcoin"
Some primal bitcoin knocked on wood
And tasted it, and found it good,
And that is why your Cousin May
Fell through the parlor floor today.
All the best.
So the crazy banned guy has been doing this across like every poker forum that exists lol. Every time I try to read and learn about BTC I have to scroll through his walls of insane nonsense. Hopefully the entire internet will ban him.
no, i'm not, i was just mocking what Monteroy was saying earlier.
looks like stars is showing some interest:
https://translate.google.com/transla...-text=&act=url
people who don't use BTC: this is good news
https://translate.google.com/transla...-text=&act=url
people who don't use BTC: this is good news
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