Over the course of the history of online poker, we've seen a lot of changes and different trends in the twoplustwo community. With increasing game difficulty, and certain countries banning online poker, the most recent trend is a large increase in the amount of coaches, writers, and video producers.

As a result, competition amongst people who make money in the coaching industry has increased, and it appears that some are engaging in questionable business tactics in order to gain an edge in this industry.

Although there are probably many coaches who embellish their accomplishments, one of the most blatant, appears to be Tri Nguyen of http://www.dailyvariance.com, who seemingly has not won much money in poker over the last few years, and doesn't think a coach needs to be a winning player.

Myself, and some other SSFR members, have written up some criticisms of Tri and daily variance, with the hope that the community becomes more knowledgeable in this buywer beware economy. Some of these concerns have been broached in a less trafficeted subforum: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/33...-book-1134710/, but we thought this deserved exposure in NVG.

Main Complaints -

(1) The 100k Poker Coaching Course: How to make 100k/year Coaching Poker

Tri has a Poker Coaching Course (i.e. Coaching Coaching) where he claims to be able to make anyone into a poker coach capable of making 100,000 a year.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/16...wledge-689726/



respected high stakes player Isaac "Ike" Haxton found the system disturbing:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...0&postcount=35
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...9&postcount=58

tri explains his logic about why he doesn't think you need to be a winning player to coach:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=109

pretty succinct description of various uproar:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=110

(2) Tri's most recent book with claim/brag of winning 1 million dollars

The most tri could provide in the forums was this graph :

Some criticize his stats as average:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...5&postcount=93

According to his ptr, he's up only ~25k in the last 3 years:


Tri himself admits that he doesn't really play anymore:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...9&postcount=68

Personally, I believe he has made 1 million in his poker career. Most savvy pros are aware that games were a lot easier to beat in 2004/2005/2006 than in the last few years. Surprisingly few players from that era are still crushing, and its not uncommon to hear about the 25/50 reg who now struggles to beat 1/2. Basically, he is marketing himself as someone who CAN win one million dollars, but in reality, his results would be extroadinarily far from that in today's game conditions.

There has been some vague criticism of his book, including a user who read page 197, where apparently he explains how to build a high stakes bankroll in "weeks" http://www.dailyvariance.com/poker-b...on-from-poker/
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=363

(3) Tri's colleague 'SplitSuit'

'SplitSuit" is author of a series entitled "New 100K Micro-stakes NL System: Crushing 50nl in 2012", currently retailing for $297.

Some quick ptr recon will quickly show you that no 50nl player has made much more than 50k since the inception of ptr (3 years ago). In fact, the top winner at 50nl is up $40,465.

Splitsuit himself claimed to be up about 25k in his microstakes well in 2008, and here is his ptr since then:

And in his coaching thread, he's only capable of showing $11k in winnings:

Amusing parody by high stakes crusher skier:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=325

(4) Daily Variance's marketing techniques

They appear to have a lot of gimmicky marketing techniques.

(a) a lot of their material is listed on extreme discount. if you go to their homepage right now, you'll find 3 books listed at $9.99 down from $97.00, $117.00, and $297.00. tri claims that these prices accurately reflect what people used to pay for these products, which IMO, only hurts his case that he was gouging them in the first place. furthermore, his most recent book How I made My First Million From Poker is already listed at $47 instead of $97, even though we all vividly remember his advertisement on 2p2 just last month. It's not an old book by any means.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...36&postcount=7
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...82&postcount=8

(b) i couldn't find exactly where this user got this information from, but apparently tri offered his $2500 coaching series in "6 easy payments of $417"
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...9&postcount=44

pretty succinct argument against tri's marketing:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=276

Smaller Complaints -

(1) Tri's attitude in forums

tri says he'd rather make 1 million against fish players than 250k against best players and snidely suggests that 100k is "not a lot of money":
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=312

tri attempts to smooth over 100k comment:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=340

(2) Let there be range

This is being sold for $947!!! (down from 1850 obv), and under description in big bold letters it says: "Do You Want To Make $175K/year?" I think if you were to ask most players, "let there be range" is solid material, but certainly not up to date, and definitely not worth anywhere near $947 in an era where you can get 100 hours of phil galfond's thoughts for $130 (BFP sign up fee + 1 month)

tri addresses significant grammatical errors:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=306

negative review of similar product:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...5&postcount=93

(3) Tri's hourly coaching rate

http://www.dailyvariance.com/slowhab...ching-program/
According to this Tri charges $5,000 per hour!!!!! His excuse, "The reason I'm charging my session so high is because I'm getting way too many requests and I don't have the time for it. I'm very busy and have turned tons of students away because I don't like to do a half-ass job. I also don't like saying no so the pricing is meant to discourage you from asking me to coach you. If you would like a recommendation, you can email me at support@dailyvariance.com"

(4) Rumors swirled that Tri gave positive reviews to Jason Ho.

Many of Tri's positive reviews come from other coaches who are probably doing the same.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=159

Conclusion
We each can draw our own conclusion for this, but it's my belief that we should police ourselves as a community.

This should just be posted in http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/33...-book-1134710/ where the matter has been discussed and debated extensively, no use for a new thread


Edit: nvm a quick read shows that you've mentioned that, but think it belongs in NVG. I disagree and will be surprised if mods leave it here

The problem with putting this in NVG is a whole bunch of people who've not been following the issue are going to chime in and just agree with you. It's less of a thread and a discussion here, and more of a place where people can +1 your argument and unconditionally agree with your opinion of slowhabit.

I've read some of those threads, and like others, I'm not convinced the product has value. I have my own opinions about the market being flooded with coaches who aren't worth what they charge (to me most coaches' rates and provided services amount to celebrity appearance fees). Not sure this is the place.

The thread has potential from its title and I think it's well written. You made a piece primarily about Tri when you maybe could have called out the coaching industry in general. The fact that I can even call it an industry, or that it's been done and overdone to the point where someone is selling a book about how to be a coach, is a problem enough to me.

Wow this guy Tri is a joke I hope people aren't really buying this stuff.

http://www.deucescracked.com/

Why start now?

I think this is a vital issue for forum users since I think your average 2+2er is ambitious and a potential customer for these types of product. Since NVG is a higher traffic forum this is a great place to raise awareness of the issue.

If people get stupid in the thread the mods should handle it but don't close the thread IMO.

no mather what the outcomes are, I must say that this is an very good indept analysis of the situation, wp op.

Fair enough I guess it is good to make potential customers aware.

I am not trying to defend Tri or anything but saying that poker coaches must be winning players does not make much sense to me. In almost every field the best coaches/teachers/scientists are rarely good coaches.

Besides, saying that one player must still be winning at a high level poker sounds to me like Phil Jackson must be as good a player as Michael Jordan..

I disagree.

I think this is a very worthwhile topic that needs to be discussed by (and exposed to) the community in great detail. This discussion certainly doesn't have to be solely about Tri Nguyen and his products, but that is a very good starting point. This is a very wide topic that has no place being discussed in a "Books and Publications" forum.

Please leave this thead here, mods!

Lol 5K an hour. If you are dumb enough to pay that you almost deserve it

If you are ready to drop 5k an hour, you must be playing a high level of game and beat the smaller stakes on the way up to the level you are at today, and obv doing something right, to be willing to drop 5k an hour...

If you are that good, you probably are better off trying to pay the best reg on your site to teach you. The games change to damn fast, plus MAing, etc etc; its more about the player pool and picking the right theory for that pool at this point

It might a be a bit different for HSHU theory, but i dont think many can justify paying 5k/hr if they unless ur beatin 1000nl and trying to jump to 10000nl maybe (6max)?

I'm very glad to see this thread come up.

Props to Jah Onion and those involved in creating the OP. I think this thread has the potential for great and very important discussion. For once I'm actually looking forward to participating in a thread.

One thing I would like to mention is that it would be a good idea to print screen and save most posts and statements that you say Tri has made, as he seems very quick to remove anything that receives criticism. For example, the opening quote in the OP from his 100k Coaching Program was removed from his site. I observed the quote before several times and many others have also quoted and noted it.

Now it seems he has actually removed the entire page about his 100k Coaching Program on dailyvariance.com.

Am I the only one that can't find it?

Jah, the posts i've seen quoted of you show's you've been on good form. 1st person that i've ever unblocked. V good post, and agree with everything you've written here.

A lot of what you post shows what a disgrace many of these people are. It is certainly not limited to just split and tri even just on the poker coaching forum in 2+2.

It looks like a lot of posts have been deleted from his thread in the coaching forum as well, several of them mentioning the quote.

This post bu AuroythmiX refers to a quote posted by "nitnit" that is nowhere to be found in the thread. If he could clarify whether it was that specific quote or not it would be helpful.

I documented AuroyythmiX's post in an image here, just in case. (Which is funny, but sadly necessary).