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VIEW: Poker coaches rates should have adjusted with the difficulty of online games VIEW: Poker coaches rates should have adjusted with the difficulty of online games

04-02-2014 , 03:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by uke_master
nonsense, utility is incredibly important. How useful coaching is to an individual - the utility of the product to the individual - is clearly going to vary significantly between people. Some may get a lot out of coaching, others very little.
What they get out of it isn't measurable?
VIEW: Poker coaches rates should have adjusted with the difficulty of online games Quote
04-02-2014 , 03:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by worpler
weren't a lot of coaches advertising huge reductions after BF? The market is not self adjusting,despite what capitalistards tell us, it's often very slow and lumbering.


Are there any well known coaches stilll charging huge rates despite not having played much or made much in last 1-2 years?
Yes, when black friday hit the market for students obviously got smaller, and the coaching market did not likely get as small relative to that, so many coaches had to lower prices.

And I'm sure there are always well known players still charging huge rates that are bad/don't play/play badly.

It's not as well documented here on 2p2, but if you look around, you can find plenty of really out of touch former "semi name" live pros with crazy hourly rates on their personal websites.

That's not to say there aren't bad deals else ware, there are bad deals on just about any training site and poker site (including 2p2).

Just like when I go to the store, if I buy my fruit blindly I'm going to get ripped off sometimes. Is it worth it to me to research it? If it's a 60 cent vs 40 cent lemon that I buy once a month, no. If I'm buying fruit for my family each week, yes, I should get an idea of what a rip off price is, because that will add up over time and it's worthwhile to figure it out.

I personally believe it's worth almost everyone's time to research a coach, research a poker room, get references, and be fully comfortable before parting with your money (it's instantly $100s, if not $1000s of dollars, plus all the time you'll spend in addition to that money... seems like a no brainer to me to not blindly buy things or blindly listen to advertising).

Quote:
Originally Posted by super_dave31
Also can this sort of stuff even be coached?

I mean when I was young I thought try hard and anything is possible... Well, it simply isn't true lol

Some people are born to be great at certai things.

Pick any world class sports man. They were born a 98/100 at that sport. Sure coaching may take them to 99/100 but fact of the matter is, they were utterly class without the coaching anyway.

Look at isildur he once took 3k and turned it into 200k in two days. How can you ever teach that? Like if isildur was a coach, what can he possible tell some one from his thought process that will make them as good as him?

But i gess maybe coaching can improve you at the lower levels. For example some one may be a 48/100 and with coaching could become a 62/100 player.

Finally.. The old argument as well about "people weren't as good back then" makes me laugh.

I once got a soccer DVD about Manchester United in te 1960s. As the first thing that struck me by a mile was how different they played. The passing, the speed, the tactics. EVERYTHNG was different to now. And yes those teams would peno ably get destroyed today because the teams have adapted to the change.

However, what I also noticed was the absolute quality of the individual players. Twy were fast, fit, had great passing ability, fantastic touch and control.

I have no doubt, what so ever, that each and every single one of those players could ply soccer today (as a young man). They were all extremely talented. The only difference being that the game is played differently now.

In fact I'd even say thu may even be better than today's players. I the 1960s soccer was played on pitches like marshes, the ball weighed like a brick. Vastly different to today's modern technology. With perfect equipment an pitches.

So I believe the same goes for poker players.

Sure whwn we look back we may say they were all fish. But at the time they were playing the game at the latest tactics. And we're good players at the time.
They still woulda been quality for that time period

To say people like stu ungar wouldn't be good today is just utter BS. Look at phil hellmuth for example. Perfect example right there. He's still crushing 20 years later.would a 20 year old Michael Jordan be **** today as the game has changed so much??
I think you're focusing too much on the top .1%. And even within that area, there are multiples more with major talent that didn't have the work ethic to succeed.

I mean, just the sports you mention, you need so much physicality, so much athleticism, and obviously the bodies these guys work so hard to achieve they are not born with.

But back to the top .1% or so. Here's a list of the 2006 high school basketball rankings - http://statsheet.com/bhsb/recruiting_class/2006

If you focus on the top 20 or so, yes, almost every name is at least a decent NBA player today, so you can say "see, these people are destined to be good from an early stage."

But look at numbers 20-150. All of a sudden you might have 10 guys in a row that do nothing today in the NBA, then you get to a really good player. There are guys ranked way down the ladder that are making a real impact today.

I think it's the same way with poker, and that meshes well with a lot of things I've noticed in life. There are certain special people, with very advanced skillsets that match certain jobs, that will likely always have major talent unless they get insanely lazy, talent to stay at or near the top of the field. But a lot of guys at the top aren't any different from 10 others that did not make it, other in the fact that they worked a lot harder and more efficiently over the years.

So, while, if you want to talk about the very best basketball player, or the top 10, I'm sure they were born/raised at an early age with an edge that would carry over, but I don't think this is all that widely applicable or relevant.
VIEW: Poker coaches rates should have adjusted with the difficulty of online games Quote
04-03-2014 , 12:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshall28
I've always thought it's a combination of two things. One, how much does the coach make per hour playing? Two, how quickly will the information the coach be able to provide help to increase your winrate?

I've had coaches I've paid 500/hr for 4 or 5 hours of coaching, then within the first 45 minutes, received enough information that has led me to make >$10,000. This is why a lot of strong players refuse to coach. Most people don't understand how small pieces of information can be extremely valuable and make other players win incredible amounts of money. Or why others think guys who charge a lot of money are ripping people off. The truth is, coaching from top players is worth a ton more than the majority of people are willing to pay.

The way the games have changed don't really matter all that much aside from winrates and hourly's changing.
1. No. This only really matters from the coach's perspective; one shouldn't coach for less than his hourly, because he needs to charge for his time (also factor in scheduling...) and for making his own games tougher.

2. What does the speed matter? If a coach raises a students winrate by .1bb/100, then the coaching was worth it after x hours. That doesn't mean the coach chosen was optimal-- maybe another coach would have helped the student's winrate by .11bb/100. Or maybe a cheaper coach would have improved it by .099bb/100. For this reason, I believe there is only one way to evaluate whether someone is over or under charging for coaching.

Price should be a reflection of the value you provide. If it's not, you're over or under charging. For top top coaches, it is very much a seller's market, so prices will remain high even if the market is competitive. If I teach someone and it makes them earn 20k more per year, why should I base my rate on how much I make an hour? That makes absolutely no sense.

In general, incentives don't align very well in a typical coaching for payment arrangement. You'll see a lot of people (probably the best coaches out there) who will only do stake/coaching or coaching for profit share. This makes a lot more sense.

Last edited by Two SHAE; 04-03-2014 at 12:59 PM.
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04-03-2014 , 01:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by super_dave31
Also can this sort of stuff even be coached?

Pick any world class sports man. They were born a 98/100 at that sport. Sure coaching may take them to 99/100 but fact of the matter is, they were utterly class without the coaching anyway.
I think sporting analogies have limits when applied to poker but in terms of sports what you claim is just not true. Would Tiger Woods, Andre Agassi, Venus Williams be the elite athletes without their Dads drilling and coaching then every day from a very early age? I do agree that those who make it to an elite level were born with the potential but realizing the potential is very different thing.

Of course this whole topic is a little off the mark as I don't think anyone is planning to start drilling their 3 year on pot odds and ranges....
VIEW: Poker coaches rates should have adjusted with the difficulty of online games Quote
04-03-2014 , 01:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by super_dave31
Some people are born to be great at certai things.

Pick any world class sports man. They were born a 98/100 at that sport. Sure coaching may take them to 99/100 but fact of the matter is, they were utterly class without the coaching anyway.
try reading something like outliers, bounce

re: op's question - maybe they should have done, but who in their right mind would reduce their rates if people are paying the same as, say, pre-BF?
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04-03-2014 , 03:23 PM
coaching market is a function of supply/demand as any other. This thread may influence that though... I'd assume the difficulty affects both supply and demand?

inevitably not all coaching offers are actually going to make you money, even though ideally they should.

anyways information/coaching these days is worth less at least at NL, because there is little money to be made there and against steep competition
VIEW: Poker coaches rates should have adjusted with the difficulty of online games Quote
04-03-2014 , 04:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jungleman
coaching market is a function of supply/demand as any other. This thread may influence that though... I'd assume the difficulty affects both supply and demand?

inevitably not all coaching offers are actually going to make you money, even though ideally they should.

anyways information/coaching these days is worth less at least at NL, because there is little money to be made there and against steep competition
look mommy, I'm quoting jungleman!!!
VIEW: Poker coaches rates should have adjusted with the difficulty of online games Quote
04-03-2014 , 04:07 PM
coaching rates HAVE gone down the past few years - significantly. not sure wtf OP is on about. and if you think coaching is too expensive or a waste of money, don't buy it - problem solved. get one session with your coach first as well - if it doesn't seem helpful, don't get more sessions. /thread
VIEW: Poker coaches rates should have adjusted with the difficulty of online games Quote
04-03-2014 , 05:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by which
Many great players cannot coach. Many journeymen are great coaches. The idea is that the transfer of ideas and ability to improve is what is important
I think you hit the point spot on. It's the transfer of ideas and ability to improve is what's important. The only person that can quantify the gain from a coaching experience is the student paying for the lesson. Everyone has their 'eureka' moments about something they love and obsess about. Sometimes it takes bouncing ideas off of someone better than you or listening to different approaches/strategies for something to hit home. Coaching that just tells you what to do without explaining and exploring the reasons why is bad coaching. You'll find the whole range of coaches in anything that can be taught

two side notes. on the JRE podcast they told a story about freddie roach (undeniably the best boxing trainer/coach) trying relentlessly as a kid to become a pro boxer but just couldnt beat the amateur division. Eventually gave up and started to help and strategize with other boxers and the rest was history. Some people are born to play and some are born to think, explain and coach

Second, i tried watching some of those mike mcdonald training videos where he gives a lecture and couldn't understand what he was talking about. He didn't explain the 'whys' just told the 'what to do'. on the other hand, phil galfond has some interesting in depth videos on uncovering people's ranges which helped me a lot. I could see mike's video helping some while not helping others and phil's helping me but not helping others. Its completely dependent on the type of student
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04-03-2014 , 07:52 PM
There's this guy at deucescracked called Hielko who charges $150/hr.

He doesnt play any more, and I'd be surprised if his hourly was >$20/hr if he did.

How can he/dc/anybody justify charging that amount with a straight face?

I know there's the issue of if the buyer doesn't feel the product is worth it they do not have to pay. But I feel that if something is 'wrong', then somebody should actually speak out against it. Not everyone is a decision maker with full mental capacities.
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04-03-2014 , 08:01 PM
How much is jungleman charging for an hour of coaching currently?
VIEW: Poker coaches rates should have adjusted with the difficulty of online games Quote
04-04-2014 , 05:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob Barnes
There's this guy at deucescracked called Hielko who charges $150/hr.

He doesnt play any more, and I'd be surprised if his hourly was >$20/hr if he did.

How can he/dc/anybody justify charging that amount with a straight face?

I know there's the issue of if the buyer doesn't feel the product is worth it they do not have to pay. But I feel that if something is 'wrong', then somebody should actually speak out against it. Not everyone is a decision maker with full mental capacities.
Guy in the coaching section on 2+2 asks roughly 14x his lifetime hourly for coaching. Can still be a good coach or worth it, seems unlikely but what do we know
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04-04-2014 , 07:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesusjapiee
Guy in the coaching section on 2+2 asks roughly 14x his lifetime hourly for coaching. Can still be a good coach or worth it, seems unlikely but what do we know
True dat.

But my point was in regard to deucescracked. They do a good job, they offer a good product. Yet they're happy to let (on the scale of bad to world class) a mediocre player advertise his coaching on their site for 10x the minimum wage in the UK (where I'm from), and 150x the daily average wage for a person working in a developing country.

IMO the majority of coaches did lower their rates post BF (not including the top top guys, more the reputable, regular video makers on the training sites), and I have no issue with them. Just the odd person looking to make a quick $ at the expense of the foolish/less intelligent.

Having said that he may be deluded enough to think his time's worth $150/hr.

So download the videos and let the market decide from here.
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04-04-2014 , 07:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob Barnes
How much is jungleman charging for an hour of coaching currently?
He's right here ITT

Although, I would be more curious in how many coaching sessions did he even hold in the first quarter of 2014. It is quite possible it is zero

(And not due to lack of demand, btw)
VIEW: Poker coaches rates should have adjusted with the difficulty of online games Quote
04-06-2014 , 03:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob Barnes
True dat.

But my point was in regard to deucescracked. They do a good job, they offer a good product. Yet they're happy to let (on the scale of bad to world class) a mediocre player advertise his coaching on their site for 10x the minimum wage in the UK (where I'm from), and 150x the daily average wage for a person working in a developing country.

IMO the majority of coaches did lower their rates post BF (not including the top top guys, more the reputable, regular video makers on the training sites), and I have no issue with them. Just the odd person looking to make a quick $ at the expense of the foolish/less intelligent.

Having said that he may be deluded enough to think his time's worth $150/hr.

So download the videos and let the market decide from here.
There's no delusion involved in setting your coaching rate. It is an open market. You can charge $5000 an hour if you want, but it doesn't mean you will get any customers. He has set his rate at $150 either because he gets students at that rate, or because he only wants a few students and sets his price high enough that he only gets the amount of students he wants.

I have raised and lowered my own prices considerably over the years to meet the market. When nobody is taking coaching at $100, I will lower it to $75, then $50 and so on. If I am getting way too many coaching requests to handle, I will raise prices to lower the demand and to take advantage of the demand for my services. The only coaches IMO who deserve scorn are those who straight up lie about their abilities, make grandiose promises about the results you will achieve (The "make 100k in a year system" type of stuff), or who try to rip off their students. Ripping a coach for charging "too much" is ridiculous if you realize it is an open market. That's like saying a professional athlete is a greedy jerk for taking a $10 million a year salary for just playing a game, but that also is set by the market and they wouldn't be taking that salary if someone wasn't offering it.
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04-06-2014 , 04:19 PM
Most training sites don't take a % of a coach's hourly and have little to nothing to do with the hourly that the coach sets.

Personally, I've seen guys start at $175hr who only made maybe $60hr at the table. Rather than me tell them how the hourly rate is too high, I let the market do it. And time and again these guys get little to no customer interest.

On the other hand, I've also seen guys that make good money at the tables and can teach low to mid stakes players well starting their coaching hourly at $30hr. Again, I'm not going to say "it's too low, raise it," the market does that very well. They get swamped with coaching and positive feedback and raise their rates (the example I'm thinking of is around $50-75hr now).

Another thing is that I'm not going to know what the exact hourly that is best for the coach in the marketplace. There have been times where I thought a guy would blow up with volume at a certain rate and it did not happen, and other times that I thought a coach was a little high but he got tons of volume.

So it's just easiest to let it take care of itself and focus more on if a coach is misrepresenting themselves (making sure there's a graph, free sample videos of their leakfinders/gameplay, basically full information to let people make informed decisions on their own).

I don't speak for DC, but I'd imagine that many training sites take this approach, and it may result in someone having higher hourly rates sometimes, but they shouldn't get much action if the information about them is all on the coaching page.
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