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02-23-2012 , 06:56 AM
Pokerstars should just make an XBox live client, Increase 1million fish right there.
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02-23-2012 , 07:53 AM
I always found it to be kind of ironic how your average pro considers themselves to be so much more clever, than a doctor/lawyer/business owner who drops a few grand at a poker table.
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02-23-2012 , 08:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ohaithere
Recreational players have figured out that they can't win playing online, especially in cash games. Recreational players who have left are gone forever. They were sold on the idea that it's a skill-based based game where they odds are actually in their favor if they play "solid" poker. This hasn't been the case for several years now. They realize that they are better off betting sports or playing table games.
I would agree with this somewhat. I wouldnt say they are gone forever but certainly dont play as much as they would have at some previous point. Nobody likes to constantly lose, I think that's clear and logical. The tougher games get, the more difficult it is going to be for a fish to be able to make money and he is going to lose a higher % of his sessions. If you are just losing session after session, I can't imagine that would be too fun for anyone and they will eventually take a break from the game of poker. So then fish start leaving the poker world to play other more fun table games or other gambling endeavours thus making poker games even more difficult which creates an even tougher table environment leading to a downward spiral where the games just continually get worse and worse.

The strongest players will always do better than others at having higher winrates, but I predicted a long time ago that a pro poker player's income will be the reverse of a normal 9-5 job no matter who you except for those who are good enough to be poker prodigies. Back in the golden era, that is generally going to be the peak salary that you would make and as time goes by, that salary per year should decrease due to games becoming tougher. I didn't think that players would improve as quickly as things have, but I do believe that we are hitting the equilibrium point in the poker industry where a lot of grinders/pros who used to make a good living will start to bow out as their salaries or winrates just are not as high as they need to be to sacrifice pursuing other ventures. If a player is making 100k a year, of course he would not leave the poker world, but if that income drops to 35k a year then he is going to certainly reconsider other options with the potential of games and income becoming worse in the future. With some pros leaving the poker world, it should make the games better. The only question is if we have hit that point yet or if we are still yet to reach bottom.

The one bright side is that there are a lot of fish in the states who currently can't play online as well as untapped markets as mentioned throughout this thread so there is hope that fresh life will be injected back into the games without waiting for equilibrium to sort itself out. I also think tournament poker will have much longer longevity than cash games due to more luck being involved (im sure ppl will debate this) and being able to chase big jackpots will just attract players much more easily so that is another option for players to fall back on
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02-23-2012 , 08:23 AM
Boom/Bust cycles happen in every industry...why should poker be any different. Only certainty is that things will change, and with everyone talking about how "tough" the game has gotten, my guess is that soon it will change for the better.
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02-23-2012 , 11:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomasJefersonSucka
Your first point isn't correct at all. Las Vegas has completely revamped their marketing in the last several years. Now it's all about entertainment: "what happens here stays here" "Camp Vegas - summer camp for adults", etc. Gambling is only one minor aspect of it. It is also now all about the restaurants, clubs, shows, shopping, pools, etc.

Vegas has also become the largest convention market in the USA. There have even been hotels on the Strip built that are non-gaming to be sure to attract meetings that don't want to associate with the casino stigma. I would even dare to say that the convention industry is the only thing keeping Vegas' head above water during this economy. They almost had a stroke when Obama talked about "not going to Vegas for business meetings" in '09.

I'm also a facebook "fan" of Vegas.com, their main travel/tourist site, and I would say about 90% of their posts don't mention gambling at all.

I think the OP is wise that the sites need to consider changing their strategy. Gamblers are going to always gamble, but there are ways to widen the market to thrive in changing times.
looool. good luck getting a comped suite or free golf for your "restaurant action". they only care about gamblers. period. when it comes to handing out the goodies.
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02-23-2012 , 02:19 PM
Until you all realize it is impossible to have a healthy long term online poker environment with rake back, and rake back grinders being a part of the game, you will argue in circles forever.

If you win, you win. If you lose, you lose. Simple as that. And, there has to be a point at which being allowed to play more than "X" number of tables is also not healthy for the poker economy. Not sure what that number is.

You guys arguing about how much you should be able to suck out of the game just for sitting at the tables makes me sick to my stomach. 95% of the people who would LIKE to play online poker don't want what is in effect rake on top of rake.
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02-23-2012 , 02:58 PM
And a follow up to my last post. Which would lead to a better online poker world?

( )The loss of lots of social and recreational players, who run the gamut of skill levels and play 1-to say-4 tables.

OR

( )The loss of the small percentage of players who play ten or twenty tables in an effort to make a living on rake back and a meager win rate.
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02-23-2012 , 04:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LA'sFriendliest
looool. good luck getting a comped suite or free golf for your "restaurant action". they only care about gamblers. period. when it comes to handing out the goodies.
Individuals may not, but conventions get all kinds of comps/incentives to host their events in Vegas. (other cities also give incentives of course)

Interestingly enough, I just read this article a few minutes ago that shows Vegas is well on its way back to pre-recession levels, at least on the basis of out of town visitors.

http://www.expoweb.com/article/recor...are-foot-venue
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02-23-2012 , 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by BigFish2010
Most people on 2+2 don't understand that the fundamental rule for online poker is that the deposits must be in par with the rake + withdrawals. They can't get into their heads that new money is needed to facilitate the games to run. Most are so caught up in a thinking of entitlement where they see some inherent right to the money of others for nothing and this is where they come short. While they are clear to point out that they are better then the fish or recreational players they won't admit that the games are to though for them and they keep on whining about rake, nitty games, to many regs at the tables, etc. While it is entertaining to read these threads it soon become tiresome to read the same pathetic whining post after post and page after page.

You are also correct in your assessment of the poker pros most of them are terrible at what they do and can't beat the games without bum hunting and bonuses. Online poker will survive but it is only natural that the players who can't win money need to give up their dreams of becoming a pro and stop whining about not winning.

The fact that most posters in this thread hasn't addressed the fact that liquidity more or less has dried up outside the poker economy show how short sited and stupid they are. While they may believe that recreational players want nothing else then to hand over their money to a poker pro they are wrong. The recreational player want to have fun and if they get short on cash things like gas, food, rent, loans, etc will come before depositing money at a poker site by far.
I agree. I'm actually surprised at how many people still play poker for a living and that the poker economy is still even intact given the impact of the rake and the ever-decreasing mathematical edges. For how long it takes to play some MTTs, it can't be all that profitable anymore for even the best players given the rake and how there are barely any total NOOBs entering these things anymore.
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02-23-2012 , 06:03 PM
completely agree that there should be advertising on the tables. Just put a beer logo or whatever instead of pokerstars on the table. This would allow rake to be decreased and improve the overall health of the games.

Another idea though not as good would be to add sponsor prizes to big tournaments. Imagine like apple adding an ipod to the winner of x tournament or beer company adding year supply of beer to winner of wcoop.
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02-23-2012 , 06:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by clfst17
I agree. I'm actually surprised at how many people still play poker for a living and that the poker economy is still even intact given the impact of the rake and the ever-decreasing mathematical edges. For how long it takes to play some MTTs, it can't be all that profitable anymore for even the best players given the rake and how there are barely any total NOOBs entering these things anymore.
I think it will be profitable as long as Gov'ts allow it and its not taxed ridiculous like France (something reasonable) and also the sites improve their tracking of bots and security

We really need some poker legislation to be passed in US asap so other countries follow and we can eventually get a global pool back down the road; imo its just a matter of time
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02-23-2012 , 07:05 PM
To view poker economy as a total, we need to take a look at every single player and their motivation to play poker in the first place.


Anyone who read Poker-Psychology by Alan Schoonmaker might remember the table where you had to fill in %-wise, why you're playing poker (and trying to do so with your tablemates, B&M based). While some of us might want to enter money with 100%, it isn't that easy. I mean, come on - unless you're in a really poor country (where playing freerolls would be worth your time), Poker isn't a gold mine. It's more of a silver mine with less back pain. We all know, if we we're in it for real money, we could make at least 100% more with a serious job, let alone the high-stakes pros. If you're clever enough to be a pokerpro, you're clever enough to get an PhD or becoming a CEO and whatnot. But maybe everyone's just too socially shy.

We need to take a look and say how much % socialization, gambling, killing time and other stuff affects our demands to play. Then we maybe just have to reassemble the priorities if our Hourly/ROI was much lower to get the view of a rec.

The average grinder knows he has a solid line, can make money and has (hopefully) fun playing poker, so loading up your client every day is totally normal. But how about someone who thinks is solid, but loses more than the fun he gets for it. This guy must be in the mood for playing, which isn't always granted, considering that he will be the loosest guy at the table and got nothing more to do than stealing blinds or getting raped by every 3better.

I for myself got trouble getting myself in the mood for playing, mostly affected by having a fever and knowing that not playing my A-Game wouldn't be that +EV, so I was surfing 9gag all day long.

Now that I'm a player who watches his BR, a zero sum medium fun day was worth more than a probable -EV poker day. That's a point we can grapple on.

Let's say we take the freerolls department. What about raising the prizepool of freerolls but with the limitation of not being able to withdraw it? It will be pure bonus money, free games and whatnot. People can play it without any fear of losing money but with a bigger intense, talking 1st place money. But we shouldn't make it into MTT-Ticket Freerolls since people don't like to be told what MTTs they should play. If I win in a freeroll I want to gamble at 2 NL, Play a 1$ SNG and a 50$ MTT if I ever get this far..

So how about the money, socialize and time killing effect.

If we sit around waiting for hands, we don't have the best time of our life. If we actually get a hand, we might get some fun. But all in between is utter boring. Of course every reg fills the gap with multi tabling but a recreational doesn't want to load up 20 tables because he just hasn't the money to do so. And even if, he doesn't want to lose it that fast.

Ipoker is doing the totally right thing with stickin' gambling into hands we're not involved. Whenever we're waiting for a hand, we can bet on what color the next turn card might be and so on. People pay rake while not playing a hand, but while playing poker. Genius move.
This might keep the gamer entertained but isn't really good for his bankroll. Another way to get the money of the player without a need to rake it in, but with a good feeling by the player.

So while a normal game consists of 2 minutes of fun and 5 minutes of waiting until the next playable hand, these players can have fun non-stop. Does this lead to a tighter playstyle because the rec isn't that bored that he has to play A7o to not fall asleep on his laptop or does it delude the player into playing even more hands because he just has won his River-bet and wants to gamble that away that extra income extra fast? We don't know, but we know that the player gets action, no matter what his hand is. Time-Killing turned into money. Nh.

Socializing

That's a part, Pokerstars and follower-site 888 have implented Home Games where only you play with your friends, no mean nits and uber-regs. Just Jimmy and Peter playing a short freezeout where you define the Buy-In. And even if they don't have to, they still spend rake to play it. Everyone could play with playmoney and swap money later, but that isn't real poker, eh?

Things like Buddy-Lists also have a great affect in the sozialice effect. Ok, regs might use it to add fishes and search for their tables, but a recreational might add people he plays more often and seeks their tables just to talk while playing. That's a good thing and it also encourages playing. Let's say you busted in an MTT, but see that your buddy plays in another MTT - why not join this one too? - To be fair, SNG and Cash are far mor in that target range, since you wanna end up at the same table.

Webcam-Poker
Another great deal in socializing. Maybe you're just a standard degen who will follow every female player or you got to take a look at your best online-friend while playing, studying his moves, trying to get a read. But you're hooked, you're one tabling, you're having fun and you don't think about losing money or playing 20 tables. You just wanna see his face when you bust his Aces with 34s.

Money
I already mentioned increased freeroll pools to attract money-hogging gamblers but what about advertising?

Recently, 888 introduced branded gaming by doing some LG events. You basically could play a freeroll (if you played enough MTTs before), play 0,5$ Rebuy into a 55$ Event where all first places got different sizes of 3D-TV. The Table actually looked like a LG TV and the LG symbol was good too see in the lobby as well on the table itself. These Tourneys had a great run as far as I see but I personally didn't play it. Why? Because If I want a TV, I want that one and which that size. I don't want to play a MTT, ending up with a 22" TV when I actually played it for the 35". I'd rather get a "LG-Coupon" for use in some store, but the idea itself is brillant.


I'm playing 95% Tournaments (MTT/STT) so my Ideas won't really help cash, but let's continue anyway.

Most of you have played a sit n go and we all know how it begins. A table pops up and a sign says "Tourney starting in 30 seconds". This reminds me of TV. Right after the ads, the Screen gets split with the "show is starting in 20 seconds" and an half-screen ad that fits right into the time spot. Why not for Sit n Gos?

As soon as a table pops up, and ad is running until the game stars, leading to a slightly bigger prize pool.

Let's say a 1$ Tourney keeps its 10% Rake, but the prizepool gets raised by 5%, making it a overlay SNG. So a 6-max has a prizepool of 6.30 instead of 6$, which isn't that much at first glance, but lets any player play a bit longer.

with higher buy-in, a person can spend more on other things since his Bankroll will be also higher due to this - the more expensive the ad can be sold.

People don't need to watch that ad, just click away like you would on TV or a Website - but the message ends at the player more often than not, making it a good investment for a poker site. Higher prize pools lead to more games a player can make, and so on to more rake. A site can pocket some parts of the ad, while a smaller portion gets into the prizepool.



The idea with the Beer is awesome. Especially because Booze increases the gambling and people love free stuff. Buy a six-pack, get entry into a special tournament (like a daily Guinness 1000$ Freeroll or tickets for a 1$ SNG or something like that).


In Germany Pringles made a deal with Burger King. For every Roll of Pringles (1,89€ usually) you get to choose between a Whopper Jr. (2€) and a Veggie Country Burger (3,29€) which made it a great deal.
I waited until the Pringles were on sale for 1.11 and bought like 20 packs at once. Ate nothing else than Pringles in those two months.

If this turns out with Poker-Beer, people would buy and drink more beer, just to play another SitnGo, rather than depositing. Maybe they will win a game and think they know it all, gonna deposit and win the world - while losing their deposit the same hour the made it.

Last edited by Uhrenknecht; 02-23-2012 at 07:11 PM.
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02-23-2012 , 11:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BuckerT1988
Pokerstars should just make an XBox live client, Increase 1million fish right there.
Rush/Zoom on Xbox live is the future.
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03-08-2012 , 01:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LA'sFriendliest
If any of this were true wouldnt las vegas have dried up and ceased to exist decades ago?

they only and aggressively cater to gamblers
they try do crush low stakes players with worse games/comps than HS players
they want ALL your money today, not a dribble of it.
He's talking about the Poker ecosysytem, while Vegas lives off gambling in general. Vegas would surely have dried up if it depended on Poker income
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03-17-2012 , 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by IamPro
I think it will be profitable as long as Gov'ts allow it and its not taxed ridiculous like France (something reasonable) and also the sites improve their tracking of bots and security

We really need some poker legislation to be passed in US asap so other countries follow and we can eventually get a global pool back down the road; imo its just a matter of time
You are hoping for something that won't solve the problem. If the US open itself for online poker you would find the same games as you have today on PS. A bunch of regs waiting for a recreational or worse player to sit down. Unless you can get huge deposits into the sites the economy will collapse just as it pretty much has at other sites. There was a time when you had a lot of players making good money on online poker but this is not the case any more. It will only get worse and most grinders that make a living of online poker today won't be doing so tomorrow.

You can sit around and hope for some miracle worker to come by and infuse the industry with loads of money but you are better of to recognize that the boom is over and the world economy is contracting. You won't find many who would sped money they need for rent, food, clothes, etc spending it to play online poker.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uhrenknecht
If you're clever enough to be a pokerpro, you're clever enough to get an PhD or becoming a CEO and whatnot. But maybe everyone's just too socially shy.
This is a delusion most poker pros has about themselves, fact is that most poker pros would have pretty ****ty jobs if poker and gambling wasn't around. If you have a look at the pros you will find that there are few of them who has a real education in something that would pay well. Most have none to speak of! The poker lifestyle is what keep the feeders in the game, they want to identify themselves with the HS pros and keep playing for 50k/year or something of that size. While this may sound as much to a poker player it does not speak that well to anyone who has had a real job that doesn't pay minimum wage.

Some are even delusional to the point where they believe that there is a market for their "insane poker skillz" outside the poker table. If this is the case why do pros go broke? They should have no problem getting a real well paying job!
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