There are several important topics tangled in the mass of the Borgata Cheating thread. One of the Blues gave me the OK to untangle at least one of the important topics so it can be discussed outside all of the other topics in the main thread.

As a player and lover of the game, Borgata scam is gross on so many levels, but likely this was going to happen at some point so none of us should be too surprised. Likely has happened more often than any of us think, but never to this scale and audacity.

The possible longer term effect of this is state regulators will likely enact enhanced rules / regs for event organizers (i.e. casinos). Though it wont happen overnight, I'd estimate the chance of no changes in many important states over the next 12-18 months at about nil.

The effect of this is going to likely involve increased costs for organizers that will manifest itself in the form of increased rake. If this process is not handled properly and if we as an industry don't get out in front of it, a time could come when 10-20% rake will be part of the "good old days" when MTTs were more affordable.

Purpose of this thread is to discuss this topic and this topic only in light of Borgata situation. By getting ahead of this issue by implementing improvements now vs later, we will make it easier for regulators to make good decisions based on proven solutions vs some draconian regs/rules that hurt the game.

There are I believe four general categories of possible improvement.

1) Tighter internal controls / processes by event organizers
2) Better chips
3) RFID or other new affordable technologies described below or not yet even considered
4) Enhanced video surveillance

Some combination of above as well.

Below are several post picked out from main thread that touch on some of these topics. I apologize to others who posted useful info in other thread that I missed. Would welcome discussion on any of the below posts or other ideas that are germane to this topic.


Anyone that thinks this thread is some sort of thinly veiled e-table spam on my part, probably doesn't know me and def doesn't understand economics of etables. They in no way could solve the problem for large events like WPO for many many reasons. some mix of all the stuff below might though.

CLIFF NOTES: The industry has two choices.

1) Fix this now in the most economical way possible that achieves reasonable level of security.

2) Do nothing and wait for new state by state regulations, where its safe to say economics of tournaments will not be part of criteria for new rules.

As a player and lover of the game, I vote for #1

simple solutions include:

1. Verifying chip counts before end of day bag and tag
- A dealer can verify chip counts in order from 1-10 seat before allowing player to bag, then initial to sign off.

2. Have dealers count down and verify stacks while on break.
- They just sit there anyway for 15 minutes, and doing this would significantly deter players from adding to stacks on breaks

3. Bagging chips when moving tables.
- You already have a floor person giving out seat cards and a dealer. With two people counting down stacks (even roughly) then bagging will prevent chips from being added.

* The third point may not be necessary for all tournaments, but should be for the bigger field large guarantee tournaments. Yes, I understand that more bags will have to be used but larger fields mean more rake so they shouldn't have a problem doing so

I do think a lot of the suggestions in that thread are way overboard and would make the rake too unbearable for anybody but the whales.

Probably just similar quality to the cash chips will be enough. Most cash chips don't have RFID's and all that, but casinos somehow don't have huge counterfeit chip leaks. They are still very hard to counterfeit. A big issue with the 5k chips is their solid edges. Cash chips have the clay on the edge spots removed and completely different clay added.

As far as chip counting and adding chips, I said in another thread that I don't see how chip dumping is profitable for the dumper or dumpee. The allegation that Men the Master takes chips from other WSOP events could be quite profitable since the chips for the lower buy-in events are "cheaper" if you get the same starting stack for each event. But if the chips come from the same event, I just don't see how it's profitable. Clearly different chip sets should be used for each overlapping event.

There also should be one uniform chip set for each event. The only way the 5k counterfeits were successful at all was that there was already two clearly different kinds of real 5k chips. Even with the solid edges, the fake chips stood out in the stacks.

Finally, the TD and floors should actually respond seriously to allegations of counterfeit chips. The biggest contributor to the scandal is that the Borgarta staff was so overextended and too busy fighting fires for any of the floors to take any such allegation seriously.

Something that would help players watch for cheating and make chip counting easier would be the introduction of larger chips and chipping up so no one is sitting behind mountains of small chips. Early in the tournament it is pretty easy to know exactly how many chips somebody has. Later not so easy.

My thinking behind the RFID proposal ties into the thinking that chips are going missing from smaller, cheap, events and being introduced into larger events. The weight to scanned chip-count ratio aspect of my suggestion addresses counterfeiting as a happy byproduct.

Hopefully the Obumma administration doesn't use this as an excuse to ban live poker!

"Never let a good crisis go to waste!" Not my words.

I made a similar suggestion as number 2 in another thread. Can even simplify it a little - just have the dealers count the number of biggest denomination chips (or two highest) in play at every break (and each player before the break must put them in stacks of 5). Every dealer reports back to the floor, they add it up from all the tables. Easy, cheap and solves 95% of issues I think.

Just slightly more complicated, and would solve 98% of problems - track the biggest chip denominations per table so that when someone comes or leaves, the number of big chips they bring or take is counted. Almost as simple, still cheap, and solves 98% of issues. I would ask why EVERY casino doesn't do this, but it's worse right now - I have to ask why NO casino is doing this.

A few thoughts on these posts and some in the other thread(s):

1) While having the dealers count chips at the breaks seems like a decent suggestion, I think it introduces a human element that isn't necessarily going to make things better. From what I have seen at these mega tournaments where the Borgata needs to find dealers living under rocks in order to manage the field size, you're lucky if your dealer is capable of dealing the cards in a decent manner. Having them count chips will lead to mistakes and even more chaos than what normally transpires in those tournaments. Counting at the breaks is a good idea on paper. I don't know that it can be implemented efficiently and accurately.

2) I think having multiple chip sets and not announcing which one would be used would help mitigate the problem, though of course, it would not eliminate it. The problem here is the overhead it causes. In my experience from some casinos in Vegas, this is an actual issue, though I don't know if it would be for the Borgata.

3) I'm not 100% following how the RFID technology would solve the problem of people pocketing chips and bringing them from one tournament into another, but maybe I'm missing something... or is it that the RFID will prevent chips from leaving the room? In that case, I believe it would alleviate a big chunk of the problem. Counterfeiting chips is hard. Moving them from one place to another is not.

Get the casinos to stick to there guns, if caught lifetime poker ban.

lifetime ban, period... entry into the Black Book. Why just poker?

this table +

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZDnY_RdC24

Also having a dealer reaching across the table and cutting chips from various stacks seems like an opportunity for increased cheating/mistakes.

others ITT like Evil Greebo could explain better than I why that wont happen and according to Evil (I think he is right) is way overkill and RFID can be mnore intelligent way provide all security needed, but in an affordable way

not sure I understand what you are saying... please elaborate

Oh its not that I don't think a table like that would work.

It just won't solve the problem based on how they show it.

The problem is this: TOO MANY CHIPS

They could have been fake chips - or they could have been legit chips smuggled from one game into another. Either way, the problem ultimately is TOO MANY CHIPS.

Well - that's frankly an easy problem to solve. It's nothing but a bankers transaction problem.

Each table is a teller window and the total tournament is the bank.

Assume a 30 person tournament with 10k in chips for a total of 300,000 in chips.
Assume a chip check using RFID takes 10 seconds.

At the start of the tournament each table's balance is 0.

When the player sits down, the dealer checks them in - and when 10 ppl sit down there are now 100,000 in chips at the table, and the process has added 100 seconds - or 1 minute 40 seconds - before the clock starts.

Start the clock - 2 players bust at the same table leaving 8, 10, 10. Balancing is needed. Table 2 has one player picked to move.

Table 2 checks that player out - at the time he leaves, he has 8000 in chips. The table balance for 2 is now 92,000.

He sits down at table 1 adding his 8k to the 100k at the table.

Table 1: 108,000 chips balance
Table 2: 92,000 chips
Table 3: 100,000 chips

The first break occurs. During the color up process, the dealer scans each stack - 10 seconds each - plus time between - call it 2 minutes during break to run the procedure.

Table 1 scans the chips and finds that it has 109,000 chips
Table 2 scans chips and finds it has 93,000 chips
Table 3 has 100,000

In one hour you've detected a discrepancy of 2,000 chips. Over an hour someone slipped in 4 fake 500's.

Now you stop everything, and search everyone at table 1 and table 2, and run the tapes looking for the action having narrowed it down to at max 2 tables with fakers, possibly only one faker, the guy who moved (but he could have taken 2 fake 500s he won with him so he's not necessarily guilty).

What you have with my solution is a running log of the appropriate balances vs. the actual balances (and add scales of course) where the dealer is just doing the job - moving chips onto scanner, pushing a button, 10 times on a break, plus when players come or go.

The tables are all linked - one central computer - so if player a moves from table 2 to 1 and checks in with more chips than he checked out with, you have insta flag and worst case you have ONE HOUR in which fake chips can be introduced before being detected.

All chips should be handled electronically. Upgrade tables to electronic: All blinds, bets done via buttons. Have all tables connected to a main server. Main server moves stacks when table moves occur.

Here, I disagree.

I like handling the chips. It *feels* like poker when there are chips.

I can stay home and sit at a computer if I want a purely digital experience.

I'm in favor of augmenting with technology but not necessarily flat out replacing.

Not sure all ITT know me but the fact I am saying this should speak volumes to the fact that etables are NOT the solution for large field temporary MTT tournament festivals

Mostly for what Evil describes .... which is detailed completly in the bible on this subject

Crossing the Chasm: Marketing and Selling High-Tech Products to Mainstream Customers

And secondarily because the economics would never work.

Small, permanent, regularly run weekly and dailies (10 tables). for sure.. we do that now and have done in many places with success

Large field 50-100 MTT events. not gonna happen in my lifetime. I have about 35 years left

the solution is going to be combo of better procedures, maybe better chips, maybe better cameras (but hope not) and maybe some sort of technical aid

i understand. love playing with chips.

however, if you want to eliminate the ability to cheat/steal/handoff/add/etc chips, this is the only way.

I'm not sure what an etable costs, but I am fairly sure they are very expensive. Two or three hundred that would only be used a few weeks out of the year.

I know the person in charge of the slot matainance at one of the large players in Vegas. I'll see if he can give me a ballpark on the cost per table, and the cost of a RFID chip that would pass gaming's muster.

Maybe, maybe not. I still think there might be an opportunity for a third party to provide the chips and equipment and monitoring software on a leasing basis.

The Borgata Spring Open - now partnered with EvilG Chip Security - they lease my tables (ok I don't have the VC for this but you get the idea), Bellagio leases my tables, WPT leases my tables, etc.

I come in with my equipment and security staff, and train the dealers, and collect a nice fee, over and over and over all year long and the casino polishes its reputation with its commitment to a fair game.

Maybe the economics would never work - but I kinda hope someone will do the actual analysis on what the economics would really be - because one does that before one puts together a business plan...

I still think there might be an opportunity for a third party to provide the chips and equipment and monitoring software on a leasing basis.

The Borgata Spring Open - now partnered with EvilG Chip Security - they lease my tables (ok I don't have the VC for this but you get the idea), Bellagio leases my tables, WPT leases my tables, etc.

I come in with my equipment and security staff, and train the dealers, and collect a nice fee, over and over and over all year long and the casino polishes its reputation with its commitment to a fair game.

Maybe the economics would never work - but I kinda hope someone will do the actual analysis on what the economics would really be - because one does that before one puts together a business plan...

When a floor man breaks a table, he brings over enough containers[1] for each player. Each person counts his stack and announces it to the dealer or floor man for verification. Once the player and the dealer / floor agree, that amount is written down on a piece of paper[2] and attached to the container (or placed in it). The chips are placed in the container.

When the player arrives at his new table, the dealer verifies that the amount in the container matches the amount on the paper, and both (the paper and the container) are handed to the dealer.

Clearly this would take more time, but it might reduce an opportunity for cheating.

[1] Could be a rack, bag, box, whatever.
[2] The paper would have the poker room logo and have to be initialed by the dealer / floor.

Necessary, but there should be a running table balance as well. This on its own does nothing for people palming chips into the game 1 at a time.

OK, I talked to my friend. He says that he has no clue on a true e-poker table, they tried them years ago and they were universally hated, but he was looking at other e-gaming tables (craps, BJ) this week.
An e-gaming table runs about 15K... a seat, so figure $150K per 10 seat ring poker table. You'll need about 200 tables for a big tournament so figure $30 million for the tables. You'll need to license them, and it might well be per seat as each seat is a separate machine so figure about 50K per table per year. (another 10 million down the drain)

That's just to have them in Nevada. If you want to move them to New Jersey you will need a bonded shipper, license them in New Jersey (and NJ will want to vet them as well) and pay more $$. Best part is when you move them back to Nevada they will have to be re-licensed again and re-vetted.

If you want to lease these gaming devices, You will need a gaming license also, and that's about $5 million in Nevada to get vetted.

None of this includes the back end hardware to make the e-tables work, so add more for that $$ and that all has to be vetted $$ and licensed as well$$.


He thought that RFID chips were running about $1-$2 each with the back end hardware. But it thought that might be doable.

There are two ways to eliminate this sort of cheating that could be at least feasibly economic at some point:

1. etables.
2. Automatic RFID chip counts for every seat and ensure the total number of chips at a table do not change except for table changes. The total number of chips could then be checked just by weighing periodically, no chip counting.

I agree that the etable seems to be a non-starter for large field tournaments. I don't know how much RFID technology will come down in price, especially the transponder technology for every seat. Perhaps a less drastic solution would be having one place to count chips through RFID and weighing them in the bags, subtracting the bag's weight to get total number of chips.