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Stoxtrader Responds To Cheating Allegations In HSNL Forum Stoxtrader Responds To Cheating Allegations In HSNL Forum

03-17-2010 , 05:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by d0nk3y
The info that isn't public IS shady. You might wanna take a look at the insider's email posted by viffer.
I have read the email. It doesnt give enough detail to make me think the CR guys have done anything wrong especially given the lack of a timeline.

Hopefully Tay has posted in the Viffer thread (which ive not checked yet). I look forward to his response to all this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deathorglory0
boywonder wtf, you multi account as well!
Playing different names on iPoker is not even remotely the same as doing it on Stars and FTP. There is an expectation that people will change skins on a network but the rules specify one name per person for life on these site.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrbrownstone
And to contact Party Poker with regards to Nick, that just makes you a snitch!
Who who cares, throw the guy under the bus and see what happens is the best course of action right now.

Also this is the right thing to do. If we want the sites to look out for us sometimes we need to look out for the sites.
Stoxtrader Responds To Cheating Allegations In HSNL Forum Quote
03-17-2010 , 05:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by boywonder
The sample size problem is no longer an issue, I just got off Skype with a second person that has approached me. He has wanted to post in this thread but has remained anonymous because he datamines the Stars / FT games, extensively from what I can gather. Anyways, he does seem to draw the line somewhere, so I give him credit for contacting me.
wtf, i thought nvg was where we crucified ppl for datamining? hell, from that isildur thread i learned that colloborating with dataminers was grounds for confiscating all winnings and banning for life.

or is it, that datamining is only allowed when its used against ppl the masses dont like?
Stoxtrader Responds To Cheating Allegations In HSNL Forum Quote
03-17-2010 , 06:13 PM
First of all, it's not very hard to make the distinction between the two situations.

Secondly, did you just imply that the collective outrage of NVGtards is what determines whether something is allowed or not?

Thirdly, are you surprised or upset that the collective outrage of NVGtards isn't rock-solidly consistent?

I really don't get the point of that post. Obv it's not allowed; thus, why the guy remains anonymous. You just wanted to comment that Isuldur1's fanboys are overzealous? Thanks, we hadn't noticed. Or, you think datamining should be allowed? Or, you are outraged at anonymous data miners? Or you are simply upset that NVGtards aren't more fair and balanced?
Stoxtrader Responds To Cheating Allegations In HSNL Forum Quote
03-17-2010 , 06:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by highhustla
First of all, it's not very hard to make the distinction between the two situations.

Secondly, did you just imply that the collective outrage of NVGtards is what determines whether something is allowed or not?

Thirdly, are you surprised or upset that the collective outrage of NVGtards isn't rock-solidly consistent?

I really don't get the point of that post. Obv it's not allowed; thus, why the guy remains anonymous. You just wanted to comment that Isuldur1's fanboys are overzealous? Thanks, we hadn't noticed. Or, you think datamining should be allowed? Or, you are outraged at anonymous data miners? Or you are simply upset that NVGtards aren't more fair and balanced?
no, the situations are the same. unnamed dataminer was doing it so that he could get an edge. he happened to notice this stuff about stox but lol if you think that was his main purpose in datamining.

i think datamining should be illegal. since its not, i dont think anyone should be engaging in it.

it appears that nvgtards, and "respected" high stakes players, believe that datamining is fine when it tears down someone they dont like.
Stoxtrader Responds To Cheating Allegations In HSNL Forum Quote
03-17-2010 , 06:28 PM
In this case, the information (regardless of the motivations that existed to create the information) is being used for a good cause. That differentiates the situation.

What would you have boywonder do, instead? Reply with, "FU data miner!! Die in a grease fire!" and then out him to the community, since he decided to try helping out?
Stoxtrader Responds To Cheating Allegations In HSNL Forum Quote
03-17-2010 , 06:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by highhustla
In this case, the information (regardless of the motivations that existed to create the information) is being used for a good cause. That differentiates the situation.

What would you have boywonder do, instead? Reply with, "FU data miner!! Die in a grease fire!" and then out him to the community, since he decided to try helping out?
sweet. so a couple years ago (when it was legal) i used datamining to discover and out a bunch of bots on ub. a good cause i think everyone will agree with. so, i can keep on datamining right?
Stoxtrader Responds To Cheating Allegations In HSNL Forum Quote
03-17-2010 , 06:40 PM
As long as you are not playing against Isuldur.
Stoxtrader Responds To Cheating Allegations In HSNL Forum Quote
03-17-2010 , 06:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by boywonder
In the past three hours I have become privy to some information that leads me to belive that Nick Grudzien, aka Stoxtrader, is guilty of multiaccounting and collusion. I was approached by a source shortly after I posted some opinions in the HSNL thread where I voiced the fact that Bryce Paradis deserved credit for taking a stance / risking his reputation in this matter and if wrong that it may be out of naivety rather than malice. I now believe this may be one of the most -EV things Bryce has ever done, and I sincerely hope it is out of foolishness rather than malice.

My source, without a doubt, has been and is very intimately involved in the day-to-day workings of formerly Stoxpoker, now CR/STOX. This is 100% certain.

Anyone who knows me knows that I am much more careful of protecting the innocent rather than condemning the guilty and that I tread cautiously in these matters. I have never spoken out against any one single person in the community, even though many have done so against me. I hope that adds extra weight to my stance.

I was told many things and presented evidence on a lot of matters. There were many, many shady things being brought up, but the following, I am very confident about and considering the evidence presented now take for granted until otherwise proven:

- Nick Grudzien, aka Stoxtrader, has played, multiaccounted and colluded under the nicknames 40putts and gr3atvie3wbro.

- The evidence presented leads me to believe that he has colluded, first and foremost, with the account name Kinetica. That is the only connection I can vouch for as of now, I know there have been other account names mentioned (LittleZen) but that is the extent to which I was presented real information. My source tells me that similar information can be made available regarding LittleZen, but it is not something I have seen with my own eyes so I cannot therefor verify.

- The account Kinetica, belongs more than probably to a person by the name of Robert Papp, also known as Rob. If you know this person or have been in touch with him, please let the community know.

- Nick Grudzien, aka Stoxtrader, also plays on PartyPoker, which as far as I know, is a violation of their terms and conditions as he is American. He does this under the screename AutoCallON. If he colludes on that site it is not something that I am aware of or that was discussed. I would like to know how to proceed contacting Partypoker on this idea, if anybody could help me with this.

There were many other things said on various other people affiliated with Nick Grudzien, many people who have very high profiles in this industry. I choose not to divulge them as I am not as confident about those things as I am about the above, and they may be secondhand information. Even though I cannot be sure, as of now I cannot think of any reason why my source would be untruthful, other than a moral desire to set the record straight. If the things that I was told are even remotely true, this business is more disguisting than I could ever imagine. We are then talking about multimillionaires exploiting tiny edges and ripping people off for what is basically inconsequential money to them. I am thoroughly disguisted today.

The evidence presented to me is so damning, that nothing short of Stoxtrader completely opening everything up for the world to see will convince me otherwise, including the name of his other accounts and justification for switching them. If FT where to deny a connection between those accounts, I will ignore it as it would still seem implausible to me. I never, in my wildest dreams, thought I would be saying this just 3 hours ago. I wish to God that I could reveal my source, and I have to control myself in order to not post a ton of other stuff that while unsubstantiated my source assures me are commonplace with certain individuals related to this issue. I feel that would not be fair on them and I do not partake in slander. For me to accuse someone publicly, I need to have a very, very strong base to stand on.

It is my personal opinion that Mason Malmuth and twoplustwo have been trying their best to see this matter go as much under the radar as possible, although I have no hard evidence of it, and again, it is a personal opinion that I feel entitled to. It was something that my source felt was important to reassure me of. I will do my best to keep this post up in as many places as possible until Stoxtrader has replied, and hope others do the same and keep up the good work.
curious, why are you getting yourself mixed up in this ?? i am interested in your motives.
Stoxtrader Responds To Cheating Allegations In HSNL Forum Quote
03-17-2010 , 06:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just a guy
curious, why are you getting yourself mixed up in this ?? i am interested in your motives.
What are your motives for wanting to know his motives?
Stoxtrader Responds To Cheating Allegations In HSNL Forum Quote
03-17-2010 , 06:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just a guy
curious, why are you getting yourself mixed up in this ?? i am interested in your motives.
Are you serious? Did you not read the post?
Stoxtrader Responds To Cheating Allegations In HSNL Forum Quote
03-17-2010 , 06:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by boywonder
Are you serious? Did you not read the post?
yes, i just read the post. someone came to you with some information. you said they were doing it for "a moral desire to set the record straight"

1st. I highly doubt that someone who has known about these things just all of a sudden has a guilty consciense and had to spill the beans through a 3rd party.

2nd. i have read your threads and you did not come off as someone who was the 'internet poker police' did you lose money to the alleged ?? what do you care if he plays on party or not ?? how does it affect you ??

3rd. i am just curious why you would sully your name to get involved in this ?? obviously, whoever is giving you the info does not want to soil their name so they are using you to 'set the record straight' what's in it for you ??

finally, imo the allegations are less credible if the source is anonymous.
Stoxtrader Responds To Cheating Allegations In HSNL Forum Quote
03-17-2010 , 07:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Victor
wtf, i thought nvg was where we crucified ppl for datamining? hell, from that isildur thread i learned that colloborating with dataminers was grounds for confiscating all winnings and banning for life.

or is it, that datamining is only allowed when its used against ppl the masses dont like?

good point.
Stoxtrader Responds To Cheating Allegations In HSNL Forum Quote
03-17-2010 , 07:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Victor
sweet. so a couple years ago (when it was legal) i used datamining to discover and out a bunch of bots on ub. a good cause i think everyone will agree with. so, i can keep on datamining right?
Interrogation of a corrupt individual usually requires the assistance of others who do similar things. That's why cops strike deals with criminals, to obtain valuable information from the inside. Nobody is condoning datamining, but they are willing to look past it this one time if the information helps bring down a larger target. It doesn't give people the right to continue their corruption as you have suggested.
Stoxtrader Responds To Cheating Allegations In HSNL Forum Quote
03-17-2010 , 07:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1p0kerboy

""I guess that's a fair and reasonable explanation if that indeed is what's happening.

It's natural to question when multiple times now posts have been taken down and removed with the reasoning not coming until later and being relatively small compared to the impact that the post and/or thread had. ""

It might be natural to question such things, it's another to accuse Mason as you did with this quote

""It's very clear now (if it wasn't before) that Mason is actively helping to cover up some of these wrongdoings.""

They say the same thing, in one case implied, the other directly, to anyone but a lawyer.

Mack
Stoxtrader Responds To Cheating Allegations In HSNL Forum Quote
03-17-2010 , 07:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mackthefork
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1p0kerboy

""I guess that's a fair and reasonable explanation if that indeed is what's happening.

It's natural to question when multiple times now posts have been taken down and removed with the reasoning not coming until later and being relatively small compared to the impact that the post and/or thread had. ""

It might be natural to question such things, it's another to accuse Mason as you did with this quote

""It's very clear now (if it wasn't before) that Mason is actively helping to cover up some of these wrongdoings.""

They say the same thing, in one case implied, the other directly, to anyone but a lawyer.

Mack
Meh.

For what it's worth, I'm hardly the only person suggesting (or even outright saying in the one post) that things are being covered up.

I don't even think it's as big of a deal as most people. If I had a business that could be negatively impacted by something that I had the ability to delete, I would probably be deleting posts as well.

Last edited by 1p0kerboy; 03-17-2010 at 07:35 PM.
Stoxtrader Responds To Cheating Allegations In HSNL Forum Quote
03-17-2010 , 07:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy2020
Interrogation of a corrupt individual usually requires the assistance of others who do similar things. That's why cops strike deals with criminals, to obtain valuable information from the inside. Nobody is condoning datamining, but they are willing to look past it this one time if the information helps bring down a larger target. It doesn't give people the right to continue their corruption as you have suggested.
so will there be some effort to at least stop this guy from datamining? i kinda doubt anyone will make it an issue, which is weird considering the crap that ppl itf get butthurt over and make threads about.

and, fwiw, i think datamining should be legal and have always felt this way. i usually cite the uncovering of the ftp bots, ub bots, ap/ub superuser cheating, and now i guess we can throw this incident in there. thats a lot of money reimbursed thanks to datamining.

there are other reasons to legalize it, mainly the enforceability issues and the fact that the playing field is not level bc now honest players are at a disadvantage.
Stoxtrader Responds To Cheating Allegations In HSNL Forum Quote
03-17-2010 , 08:28 PM
I read the thread two times and to me it sounds like Two plus Two management is trying to defend Stox and nothing else! To all of us poker playing it is clear that Stox/CR guys are bunch of cheaters butthe fact that Two Plus Two is behind Stox is shocking!

Mason, you are saying that Two Plus Two paid more than 10k $ for lawyers and attorney taxes while investigating the UB SuperUser accusation and this was made for all poker players. Well MA together with colluding is unfair as well why are you not investigating it as well?

Stoxtrader openly admitted having several accounts in FTP. Why don't you go to FTP with your lawyers and ask FTP about this accounts and their registration details - name and etc and then force them to thoroughly investigate if there was colluding or not.

1. Did Stox used his real name on all of "his" accounts? If not he can be sewed for impersonating a person according to the laws in USA.

2. Then comes the question for colluding. How being a SuperUser is different to colluding when it comes to gaining advantage while playing online poker? Why don't you investigate this accusation the same way you did it with UB?
Stoxtrader Responds To Cheating Allegations In HSNL Forum Quote
03-17-2010 , 08:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by iLLuS10n-
1. Did Stox used his real name on all of "his" accounts? If not he can be sewed for impersonating a person according to the laws in USA.
I'd love to see a source for this law he could be "sewed" under.
Stoxtrader Responds To Cheating Allegations In HSNL Forum Quote
03-17-2010 , 08:38 PM
Ok...Im about to be that person...

Can someone objectively summarize this please??? Im not wading through 29394230429034 pages....
Stoxtrader Responds To Cheating Allegations In HSNL Forum Quote
03-17-2010 , 08:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by peachy

Can someone objectively summarize this please???
Stoxtrader Responds To Cheating Allegations In HSNL Forum Quote
03-17-2010 , 08:48 PM
A brief recap of the brouhaha to date:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=866
Stoxtrader Responds To Cheating Allegations In HSNL Forum Quote
03-17-2010 , 08:59 PM
so having 2 accounts is so bad but datamining isn't?

they are both against the rules of the site.

the double standards some people have is unreal.
Stoxtrader Responds To Cheating Allegations In HSNL Forum Quote
03-17-2010 , 09:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by otatop
I'd love to see a source for this law he could be "sewed" under.
Impersonation is the crime of pretending to be another individual in order to deceive others and gain some advantage. The crime of false impersonation is defined by federal statutes and by state statutes that differ from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. I am not sure from which state is Stox...
Stoxtrader Responds To Cheating Allegations In HSNL Forum Quote
03-17-2010 , 09:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by deathorglory0
so having 2 accounts is so bad but datamining isn't?

they are both against the rules of the site.

the double standards some people have is unreal.
no one said it wasnt bad.

calling a woman a whore and raping her are both bad, one is worse tho.
Stoxtrader Responds To Cheating Allegations In HSNL Forum Quote
03-17-2010 , 09:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by otatop
I'd love to see a source for this law he could be "sewed" under.
Should be sewn if he was stitched-up.
Should be sown if it was a plant.
If you smell a rat you may be in a sewer.

With English this bad I have a mind to...........litigate.

Mack
Stoxtrader Responds To Cheating Allegations In HSNL Forum Quote

      
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