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SNE launches a petition against Spin & Go format SNE launches a petition against Spin & Go format

10-10-2014 , 08:03 AM
So many people who just don't have a clue and blindly +1'ing DN post because they want to be popular.

As mentioned previously it's as though Pokerstars is soon to be a roulette site and nobody wins, but some people have short term heaters. It's fun and recs will like it, so will all the pro-DNegz people in this thread agree with it? Surely!



I honestly have no idea how there are so many people here in support of Pokerstars becoming a poker site where variance is so huge that good players may never see the long run and everyone else is losing long-term and just pounded by the rake. Maybe it's jealousy that these NVG-tards can't beat the games, so why should anyone? It's these hopeless souls that Pokerstars uses for their player surveys and customer feedback no doubt.
SNE launches a petition against Spin & Go format Quote
10-10-2014 , 08:23 AM
First time in years Dnegs have made a semi decent post congrats

And who cares about SNE grinders among rec players ? If yourè not professionel enough to adept to games , find another profession
SNE launches a petition against Spin & Go format Quote
10-10-2014 , 08:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DNegs
You guys don't even want to know what I would do to the VIP programs if I was in charge! I would focus on giving bonuses to the LOSING players exclusively. They'd play more, last longer, and the pros would get the money in the end anyway. I think it's overkill to not only have pros crushing all the rec players, but then also giving them the majority of the bonuses on top of that?

The mindset of some pros is backwards. You think they need you, when the reverse is true. They would do better as a company if pros didn't play at all. They need the rec players, THEY should be the priority, not the pros. If you lose rec players, then pros don't play anyway. If the rec players continue to deposit and play, then the pros will be there to get that money.

Look at it this way, PokerStars provides a service that allows some of you to make a living. You are not employees, and they are not your boss. As with any service, if you don't feel it's worth it to use, then you are free to choose a different service. That may seem harsh, but I get a sense that some people have entitlement issues that aren't warranted.
So you would stop giving bonuses to winning players? Are you talking here about your endorsement money that you get from PokerStars, cause none of the supernovas gets as much money from Stars as you do.
SNE launches a petition against Spin & Go format Quote
10-10-2014 , 08:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DNegs
I've seen a lot of talk about the poker ecosystem and what kills games, etc. Do you know what kills games and destroys the poker ecosystem above and beyond all the things mentioned? Winning players. Yup, you guys lol. The winning players as a whole win a lot more money than the company makes each and every year. Yet, oddly, they still offer VIP programs to the very people who are essentially "killing the games."

If Spin N' Go's deterred pros from playing, that actually HELPS the poker ecosystem immensely, it just may not help YOU personally. I love, love, love, and love this concept and if it helps to level the playing field a little bit, while allowing rec players to stretch their dollars a bit further than before, I think in the end that is a win for everyone- even the winning players who are upset about it now.

You guys don't even want to know what I would do to the VIP programs if I was in charge! I would focus on giving bonuses to the LOSING players exclusively. They'd play more, last longer, and the pros would get the money in the end anyway. I think it's overkill to not only have pros crushing all the rec players, but then also giving them the majority of the bonuses on top of that?

The mindset of some pros is backwards. You think they need you, when the reverse is true. They would do better as a company if pros didn't play at all. They need the rec players, THEY should be the priority, not the pros. If you lose rec players, then pros don't play anyway. If the rec players continue to deposit and play, then the pros will be there to get that money.

Look at it this way, PokerStars provides a service that allows some of you to make a living. You are not employees, and they are not your boss. As with any service, if you don't feel it's worth it to use, then you are free to choose a different service. That may seem harsh, but I get a sense that some people have entitlement issues that aren't warranted.
The whole reason I wound up signing onto PokerStars instead of FTP was because I recognized Daniel from ... pretty much everywhere And also, it just sounded a lot more pleasant, being a PokerStar instead of Fully Tilted And I was a losing player and a net depositor, playing poker like it was a slot machine for a few months there before realizing that it was more like chess, so ... PS can thank Daniel for all the money I injected into the poker ecosystem those first couple of months as a spewtard before figuring out how to reverse the tide

Recently I've been making my way through past IOM player rep meeting reports, and actually got more of the sense that the poker ecosystem takes all three groups to function - the site (who organize everything and provide the meeting place, and who find new players to bring to the site), winning players (who will reliably put in volume, thereby generating a reliable stream of income to PS), and losing players (who deposit fresh money into the system ... but who oftentimes won't be willing to stick around for very long, watching others get rich at their expense).

Like, it seems like losing players tend to be temporary players - and they cost $ to recruit, and are hard to find and stuff? But they're more prized than regs these days, because word's gotten out that poker's gotten hard ... and it has, because a lot of games aren't beatable without rakeback. Right now lots of casuals are playing Spin & Gos, because there's some really sweet deposit bonuses for them - but if people lose their $ too fast playing them, just like with slot machines, most people aren't going to come back to play them, because there's LOTS of sites offering casino games now, aren't there? So people have lots of choice. And then there's Vegas too, where you can get free drinks, and there's other fun stuff to do as well like go see shows and eat at nice restaurants, etc.

Read in that Amaya quarterly report that the Amaya guy was hoping having a solid offering of poker available was what would make his casino different from the competition – hopefully he realizes that what makes poker fun is feeling like you have a chance to make $ at the tables, not by grinding out volume and getting rakeback. Playing's gotten less fun because rake's so high - it'll be interesting to see how long Amaya's willing to offer promos that don't pay for themselves, because old PokerStars wasn't willing to do that ... and without generous promos, not sure if offering Spin & Gos alone will be enough to attract a ton of net depositors?


Guess my final thought is that maybe it's offering promos that attracts net depositors - that's what worked on me when I first started playing, but doubt I'd have kept depositing just to play Spin & Gos back when I was a losing player, without having a sustained heater. I think lowering rake would help make poker more fun for everybody, across the board.

Last edited by TrustySam; 10-10-2014 at 09:10 AM.
SNE launches a petition against Spin & Go format Quote
10-10-2014 , 08:55 AM
I cannot wait for collusion and team play to lower variance to kick in , and people figuring that format is beyong stupid as a form of poker.

Dneg is a huge hypocrit if sngs were his bread and butter he would be shaming ps on twitter that they are killing poker and that poker need a decent balance between "fish" and winner. That format is definitly of balance since a very good player can play 10s of thousands of tournament without profit if he get on the bad side of prizepool variance.
SNE launches a petition against Spin & Go format Quote
10-10-2014 , 09:02 AM
view on spin n go's:
the jackpot should be shown afterwards!
SNE launches a petition against Spin & Go format Quote
10-10-2014 , 09:05 AM
Isn't it far more profitable to cater to the 99% of players versus the top 1%? Real question. I'm thinking it would be, but there are players in this thread that seem to be suggesting otherwise.

Unfortunately, it's difficult to make both sides happy all of the time.
SNE launches a petition against Spin & Go format Quote
10-10-2014 , 09:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackaaron
Isn't it far more profitable to cater to the 99% of players versus the top 1%? Real question. I'm thinking it would be, but there are players in this thread that seem to be suggesting otherwise.

Unfortunately, it's difficult to make both sides happy all of the time.
Can't be profitable if you don't exist.
SNE launches a petition against Spin & Go format Quote
10-10-2014 , 09:16 AM
*** Warning: a crazy strike / mockery of P* idea ahead ***

Quote:
Originally Posted by slobaks
all would be fine if they introduced spin n goes 1st January , now , as Rusemandingo said they scum all of us(SNE grinders) , that's not fair when you reach 700k VPP's and they fkd u up 3months before you complete your chase...
For those who have 700K VPPs and are going for SNE next year as well (it's hard to predict the 2015 VIP program, though, but its details will be known before the New Year), the value of benefits they'll get for hitting 1M VPPs exceeds the amount to be raked. More precisely, the benefits are:

$4200 = the 800K milestone
$20000 = the 1M milestone
$5000 = the extra WCOOP ME ticket sold out with a discount in the MP or swapped
$16800 = 1.05M FPPs for the remaining 300K yVPPs
$24000 = 1.5M extra FPPs (for SNE as opposed to SN) for the first 1M VPPs of 2015

Total: $70000 for 300K VPPs given for $54545.46 in rake, i.e. 128% rakeback equivalent.

The fact that it's bigger than 100% implies that just sitting down and flipping is +EV.

That has prompted me a crazy parody on 'casino games'.

[0. Take one-year loans so that the delays in some of the portions of the cashback (milestones, next year's extra FPPs) don't hurt the bankrolls; edit: or grind normally until hitting 800K VPPs and then flip, see below.]
1. Form groups of 9 SNE chasers each.
2. Add each other into Sharkystrator sitlists.
3. Choose a few limits and formats that are insignificant to the bankrolls but have a decent rake %, e.g. $7-15 regspeed 9-mans. (As an option, send each other $ compensations for losses after the job is done.)
4. Pick a non-chaser, add him on non-sit-lists and seat him in the same lobbies so that the lobbies aren't completely blocked and hence Stars can't object.
5. Fill up as many SnGs (with all the same 9 chasers) as the lobby speed allows.
6. In each such SnG, go auto-all-in in the first hand. (Don't create a bot, just press the all-in hotkey at 50 or so stacked tables.)
7. After the VPP-earning job for the year is done in a few hours, happily take a break and learn a new poker variant for next year's SNE chase because apparently 6-man hypers won't allow for it.

Surely, the profit won't be as big as if 'games of skill' were played, but the time spent will be much lower; the stretch will be the amount of cashback (next year's FPPs) that will yet remain to be earned.

Lock Poker is a bad example, but the fact is that it did allow HUSnG flips where high volume grinders were getting >100% cashback.

Edit: actually, there's no need for loans, you can grind up to 800K VPPs normally, and then the last 200K VPPs to the SNE will give ~100% cashback even without accounting for next year's extra FPPs. That's how ridiculously unbalanced the milestone system is.

Indeed, it's needed to rake $36364 to get the last 200K VPPs, whereas the gains are:

$20000 = the 1M milestone
$11200 = 700K FPPs
$5000 = WCOOP ME
$36200 total

The cashback % can be further boosted by flipping at microstake cash games, where 7+ VPPs are awarded per $1 of rake.
__________________________________________

If seriously, just grind any games where you don't fail completely, in order to get the VPPs - the 128% cashback perspective will make slightly -EV games slightly +EV.

Last edited by coon74; 10-10-2014 at 09:45 AM.
SNE launches a petition against Spin & Go format Quote
10-10-2014 , 09:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by coon74
*** Warning: a crazy strike / mockery of P* idea ahead ***


For those who have 700K VPPs and are going for SNE next year as well (it's hard to predict the 2015 VIP program, though, but its details will be known before the New Year), the value of benefits they'll get for hitting 1M VPPs exceeds the amount to be raked. More precisely, the benefits are:

$4200 = the 800K milestone
$20000 = the 1M milestone
$5000 = the extra WCOOP ME ticket sold out with a discount in the MP or swapped
$16800 = 1.05M FPPs for the remaining 300K yVPPs
$24000 = 1.5M extra FPPs (for SNE as opposed to SN) for the first 1M VPPs of 2015

Total: $70000 for 300K VPPs given for $54545.46 in rake, i.e. 128% rakeback equivalent.

The fact that it's bigger than 100% implies that just sitting down and flipping is +EV.

That has prompted me a crazy parody on 'casino games'.

0. Take one-year loans so that the delays in some of the portions of the cashback (milestones, next year's extra FPPs) don't hurt the bankrolls.
1. Form groups of 9 SNE chasers each.
2. Add each other into Sharkystrator sitlists.
3. Choose a few limits and formats that are insignificant to the bankrolls but have a decent rake %, e.g. $7-15 regspeed 9-mans. (As an option, send each other $ compensations for losses after the job is done.)
4. Pick a non-chaser, add him on non-sit-lists and seat him in the same lobbies so that the lobbies aren't completely blocked and hence Stars can't object.
5. Fill up as many SnGs (with all the same 9 chasers) as the lobby speed allows.
6. In each such SnG, go auto-all-in in the first hand. (Don't create a bot, just press the all-in hotkey at 50 or so stacked tables.)
7. After the VPP-earning job for the year is done in a few hours, happily take a break and learn a new poker variant for next year's SNE chase because apparently 6-man hypers won't allow for it.

Surely, the profit won't be as big as if 'games of skill' were played, but the time spent will be much lower; the stretch will be the amount of cashback (next year's FPPs) that will yet remain to be earned.

Lock Poker is a bad example, but the fact is that it did allow HUSnG flips where high volume grinders were getting >100% cashback.
__________________________________________

If seriously, just grind any games where you don't fail completely, in order to get the VPPs - the 128% cashback perspective will make slightly -EV games slightly +EV.
Dude you literally have no idea what you're talking about.
SNE launches a petition against Spin & Go format Quote
10-10-2014 , 09:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackaaron
Isn't it far more profitable to cater to the 99% of players versus the top 1%?
It probably is but the Spin & Go format does EXACTLY the opposite - due to it's jackpot distribution it makes a super small fraction of the players win huge, while well over 99% of the players will be at most just slighly profitable, with most of the recreationals losing their money quickly due to the high rake.

Last edited by Scarmaker; 10-10-2014 at 09:42 AM.
SNE launches a petition against Spin & Go format Quote
10-10-2014 , 09:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by coon74
*** Warning: a crazy strike / mockery of P* idea ahead ***

Total: $70000 for 300K VPPs given for $54545.46 in rake, i.e. 128% rakeback equivalent.

The fact that it's bigger than 100% implies that just sitting down and flipping is +EV.

If seriously, just grind any games where you don't fail completely, in order to get the VPPs - the 128% cashback perspective will make slightly -EV games slightly +EV.
So a player has to pay $128,000 in order to get $70,000 back over the next $54,545 he pays, WHAT A DEAL!!
SNE launches a petition against Spin & Go format Quote
10-10-2014 , 09:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by reino
First time in years Dnegs have made a semi decent post congrats

And who cares about SNE grinders among rec players ? If yourè not professionel enough to adept to games , find another profession
And if the new games one has to adapt to aren't beatable?

Should we adapt to roulette and baccarat? Cause that's the direction we're heading...
SNE launches a petition against Spin & Go format Quote
10-10-2014 , 09:47 AM
Lol that post of Dnegs is so bad. The reason why they give regs so much rb is that they would play on pokerstars and not go elsewhere. A supernova elite is worth between 50-70k a year for pokerstars. One fish maybe 1k. Sure we need the fish so the sne plays.

If their would be only fish then somme will have an edge on others and they will do the same as sne but just play a lot less.
Fish dont care about a smooth software. Do you think all the others sites could be so much more profitable than pokerstars even without the bonusses stars offers?

Ps. Pokerstars didnt invent this but Winamax did so stop telling how genius ps was creating spin n gos because they didnt.
SNE launches a petition against Spin & Go format Quote
10-10-2014 , 09:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarmaker
So a player has to pay $128,000 in order to get $70,000 back over the next $54,545 he pays, WHAT A DEAL!!
Math is difficult for an eastern european right.

You have to pay 54k rake to get 70k back.
He doesnt really think about the hourly tho. Making 300k vpps is not something u do that fast.
SNE launches a petition against Spin & Go format Quote
10-10-2014 , 09:58 AM
DN seems to ignore the fact that the possibility of becoming a winning player is a very good advertisement.
SNE launches a petition against Spin & Go format Quote
10-10-2014 , 10:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by miguelll
Math is difficult for an eastern european right.

You have to pay 54k rake to get 70k back.
He doesnt really think about the hourly tho. Making 300k vpps is not something u do that fast.
I don't get it - I DID say he has to pay 54k rake to get 70k back.
SNE launches a petition against Spin & Go format Quote
10-10-2014 , 10:04 AM
Every single analysis of that format are scary , if pokerstars got a different analysis and want to prove us the format is playable for someone expecting to make a living they are welcome to post those information.
SNE launches a petition against Spin & Go format Quote
10-10-2014 , 10:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarmaker
So a player has to pay $128,000 in order to get $70,000 back over the next $54,545 he pays, WHAT A DEAL!!
The thing is that the player has already paid a ton ($128K) of rake for some reason (games that were soft enough) to earn those 700K VPPs.

It's the same idea as pot commitment: if you get 1-to-10 odds with 20% equity, it doesn't matter how you've got most of your stack into the pot, what matters is that you now have to throw the rest of the chips into the centre to get part of your money back.

That's how rake races on euro networks work too: very often, the top rakers are so close at the end of the month, and the payjumps are so big, that they have to sit and grind at the last nights of the month, no matter in how good or bad a shape they are.
SNE launches a petition against Spin & Go format Quote
10-10-2014 , 10:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mecastyles
it reduces gameselecting to zero (cant even see total pool like zoom)

this is not a bad thing

ridic HIGH rake higher than 6max as high as 9max (unreal)

Proof of this? Seems like you are scaremongering I have heard the opposite

and turns up the variance so high that its essentially a gambling game because it will take years upon years to get a sample in 100x+ spins

this is an exaggeration and there is nothing intrinsically bad about variance. It is beneficial to the fish and the game and the only reason poker works at all. Killing variance is killing the hand that feeds you


Just when the general public is starting to see poker more as a skill game
Basically all you nit regs need to stop crying over variance and what you feel you are entitled to.
SNE launches a petition against Spin & Go format Quote
10-10-2014 , 10:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 22riverrat22

At the most commonly played formats/stakes where one can make a living, recreationals greatly outnumber regs.

defend its validity
Why would I defend the validity of something I didn't say?

I didn't mistype. I meant exactly what I wrote. The most commonly played stakes. period. I could have compared 100nl and 200nl instead if you wanted? The outcome is the exact same. There will be more recs at 100nl compared to 200nl or another way of putting it is the reg/rec ratio will be higher at 200nl (aka, more regs for every rec player).

Last edited by Craggoo; 10-10-2014 at 10:13 AM.
SNE launches a petition against Spin & Go format Quote
10-10-2014 , 10:09 AM
as a hobby player i like them, they are fun and fast.

i play a few before finding a tournament or other game.

and a few after i am done with whatever

i find this thread ridiculous

as one mentioned earlier..stars dont Owe you a living

from my point of view as depositing(read bad)player, i would say the fewer reg's playing the better.

and the promo's on stars..yes they indeed suck, because they give value to players that are allready winning, not the casual players.
SNE launches a petition against Spin & Go format Quote
10-10-2014 , 10:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SandmanNess
LOL at all the people ITT who don't have a clue what they're talking about.

"Learn the game where the fish is" argument doesn't apply here.
"SNE don't deserve anything so **** em" argument is super ridiculous.
"Fish don't care about rake, so who cares how high the rake is", pure insanity.
"If you don't like it, play somewhere else" is just laughable
"Who cares how Stars treats their customers, because they don't owe anyone anything" is asinine.
Dnegs complaining about people feeling entitled is the biggest LOL of the thread.

Is this really the AIDS that I'm reading here?
Quote:
Originally Posted by miguelll
Lol that post of Dnegs is so bad. The reason why they give regs so much rb is that they would play on pokerstars and not go elsewhere. A supernova elite is worth between 50-70k a year for pokerstars. One fish maybe 1k. Sure we need the fish so the sne plays.

If their would be only fish then somme will have an edge on others and they will do the same as sne but just play a lot less.
Fish dont care about a smooth software. Do you think all the others sites could be so much more profitable than pokerstars even without the bonusses stars offers?

Ps. Pokerstars didnt invent this but Winamax did so stop telling how genius ps was creating spin n gos because they didnt.
Lots of fail ITT. DNegs is spot on.
SNE launches a petition against Spin & Go format Quote
10-10-2014 , 10:18 AM
Sure the regs would go elsewhere
SNE launches a petition against Spin & Go format Quote
10-10-2014 , 10:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by miguelll
Making 300k vpps is not something u do that fast.
I did propose a way to earn VPPs lightning fast: flip (shove every hand everyone) at a ton of microstake tables / SnGs at once with people whom you trust.

I'm not sure how Stars will like this, and how they might reinterpret ToS to prohibit such behaviour, but I see nothing illegal in it. A group of friends gathers to play a ton of all-in flips for a ton of fun and, 'as a by-product', to get back a total of 68% of their total yearly rake, thus still leaving Stars with a ton of net revenue for the year. Why would that qualify as cheating?

Last edited by coon74; 10-10-2014 at 10:33 AM.
SNE launches a petition against Spin & Go format Quote

      
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