Hello, i'v been playing at Pokerstars for around 4 years now, and two years ago I found out that Poker Edge was banned there. Which I thought was great as I think sharing histories is bad etiquette. About a 1 1/2 year ago tho i'v found out that many users still use Poker Edge on all of the sites which have it banned, I even have a friend who uses it and regularly cashes out at Pokerstars and uses poker edge for his information on other players.
Since I started at Pokerstars, Poker Edge has accumulated just over 9k hand histories on how I play. This would not be a problem if we all had the option to use it, but as it is only the players willing to break the rules are getting this huge advantage over the other players. I actually sent a message to pokerstars over a year ago addressing this problem they told me "We are addressing the issue and it will be sorted soon" so I left it at that. Yesterday I found my friend had cashed many times and uses Poker Edge at Pokerstars, so I asked Pokerstars the same question and got the same reply as over 1 year ago "We are adressing the issue and it will be sorted soon".
For me the only fair way they could resolve this issue (if not able to stop people using the software) would be to allow Poker Edge for everyone, or to allow users to have alternate user-names when hand history sharing programmes have gathered allot of hands on that user.
What are your views on this issue?
If you feel the same as me. I would ask you to sent a message to your pokersite to get them to actually address this issue instead or them just making empty promises.
Thanks for your time, and best of luck at the tables

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I downloaded pokeredge trial when i was looking for a hud, at the time i wasn't aware it was illegal.
I only started it once and couldn't even work out how to use it (me dumb, derp).
My point being, i was emailed by stars and told they detected i used it. So i told them it was a trial and i didn't actually use it, only started it up and tried to work out how it works.

They were ofc fine about my honest error, but it shows that they do try to stop people using it.

So not sure what emailing them would achieve.



edit: Highlighted relevant parts, as i appear to have rambled nonsense as per usual.

LOL!!!! ^^^

Don't worry Stars are working on the problem and it will be sorted out soon.

Sure it will. Because PE is a brand new problem, so Stars is just now getting to it; they'll have it licked in a a week.

9k hands in 4 years though.

that stat alone tells me you are a fish. no need to datamine you.

lol, you must be very cleaver to get that from that statistic, as all that statistic could possibly tell you is that iv played over 9000 hands against players using poker edge. Explain Please?

Yikes, you are a bit out of the loop.

My understanding is that pokeredge captures every single hand you play, regardless of who you are playing.

In fact pokeredges data matches that of PTR, I think they may even use PTR for hand histories, or possibly be some kind of partner site.

But the fact is, pokeredge is not the problem, datamining is. A lot of players will buy HH's, which they will import into their HUD. This is a much better way of doing it, as its cheaper and they arent breaking any Terms and conditions(at least they cant be caught). Pokerstars allow the use of huds, the first step to stop datamining would be to combat it at its route. Make it impossible to datamine hands, unless you are actually sitting at the table.

People should play naked imo.

Hi JackO your post makes alot of sense and helps me understand it a bit more, so thanks for that. I think i'll have to look into using a hud myself as i'v been playing with this disadvantage for a long time now, and i'v only ever really used player notes. I play more live games than anything and maybe a Tourmnament a week online. I'v always seen a hud as a kind of cheating(like taking a video recorder to a live game to play back the next time you'r playing these opponents), but as the sites allow huds I suppose the only way to beat them is to join them.
I got a message from Pokerstars today too whuch explains it all very well, ill post it next for a help to others, whom like me dont quite understand. Thanks for your help

Message from Pokerstars:
PokerStars shares your feelings on this issue: we wish it was easier to stop their data collection, but it is not easy.

One thing that might be causing some confusion is the false belief that players are able to use PokerEdge without PokerStars detecting it. Late last year, PokerStars identified the accounts of a large number of players who were using this software, and took appropriate action. However, to protect the dwindling sales of their product, the PokerEdge software authors deleted all discussion of this from their website.

Unfortunately, I can not give you the answer you want to hear, which is "we guarantee there is zero datamining on PokerStars". That is a guarantee we cannot make today, and that we will not be able to make in the future. *Anyone* at any online poker site who gives you that guarantee is simply misleading you.

The fundamental problem is that the games can be observed. Anybody can load up a PokerStars client and observe a game in progress, and see the game play as it goes. They can also view the hand history immediately after the hand, in the "Instant Hand History" window.

Allowing observers to view the games prior to they play is a fundamental feature of the software that cannot be removed. Players like being able to tell their friends "hey, come sweat me on table so-and-so, I'm winning big!".

Once the data appears on a remote player's screen, however, it's completely out of our control. If it's being displayed on a remote screen, it *can* be gathered by a determined collector, no matter what restrictions we put in place... and we do have many such restrictions in place. This is the same challenge that Hollywood studios are facing: any data sent to a PC can be recorded, and Hollywood is collectively spending billions of dollars and trying to develop new protected hardware paths to stop people pirating video and audio.

It is our goal to minimise datamining via software limitations, without overly restricting real players who need to legitimately observe a table at which they are not playing. Since we're unwilling to completely remove such features (which would be throwing out the baby with the bathwater), we will always be engaged in a game of cat and mouse with those people that seek to break our rules.

We'll introduce a new block, and they'll circumvent it somehow, given enough time and resources.

There is simply no way we can keep them all out. We can only raise the barrier so high that it becomes not feasible to continue to do so, which is a barrier we have not yet reached and may never reach. Someone will always find value in finding a way around our efforts.

The best we can do is to continue to make their efforts less than complete, and to continue to shut down the accounts and access points of those that would gather hand histories. This is very much an ongoing process, and not at all an easy fix, as the end result cannot be that real players are blocked from observing the tables.

It is a fundamental paradox.

Datamining remains against the rules, and we continue to pursue all options, including potentially legal options against for-profit datamining companies. Individual dataminers who are caught and ignore warnings are at risk of the loss of playing privileges on PokerStars.

I regret that I can't be the bearer of better news, but I wish you well in the future.

No problem magic bud.

It is important to note that although Pokerstars allow huds, they dont allow datamining. They allow you to collect the data if you were involved in the hand, but you are not suppose to collect hands you werent involved in. But it is impossible for them to say if anyone has bought hand histories, they can only see that the HUD is running on the PC, they cant see what HH's are populating the hud.

Pokerstars have been talking about doing in with datamining for years, but they have never said how. There are solutions, stopping anyone spectating tables would be one, however this comes with pros and cons. If there was no spectators, the integrity of the games could be questioned as hand histories would only be available to pokerstars.

What stakes do you play?

I think any tool that facilitates datamining is bad news. Most of us want to enjoy a game where everybody is on a level playing field. Any extra tools should either be included in the software for everyone or banned altogether. (I don't use HUDs etc and would prefer that even they were banned).

Stars could act to stop this if they really wanted to. There are lots of obstructions they can put in the way. For example:

- Don't allow any user to open more than x tables they are not playing at
- Require users to enter CAPTCHA (distorted letters) to open tables they are not playing at
- Allow annual sn changes
- Only allow logged-in site members to view tables (or limit non-members to view one table at a time)
(Obv they would know who is looking at lots of tables if they are logged in).

Its important to note that there is no black and white here.

If you look at the issue from pokerstars perspective for a minute. They of course have to publicly disallow datamining, if they did not many players would be turned away.
All the methods mentioned by raidalot would help prevent datamining, if not prevent altogether.
However, do Pokerstars want to stop datamining?. A lot of players who mass multitable, datamine. These players are the sites greatest rake generators, do pokerstars want to make it harder for these players.
Pokerstars will only take stern action if they feel the pros of taking action outweigh the cons and I dont think they do yet, from pokerstars perspective.

Online I normally play $10+1 and sometimes the 20euro+2. Live games I normally play 100 euro+10 to 200+20.
I'll never really trust online games enough to put my stakes up. I know this comment proably gets heckled alot but" it wouldn't even suprise me if there are hackers out there who actually know the whole cards of opponents". And it's not even possible for anyone to say with certainty that this is not true. I love live games and online for me is just a bit of practice to get me ready for my live game at the weekend.

I agree radialot I also think any added tools should be banned, or if not should be available to everyone as part of the Poker Software to give us a level playing field. After all a big part of poker is memory and these programmes are making this part of the game too easy for everyone, therefore closing in the gap between good and bad players.

Very true JackO they aren't going to make changes to the game if they think their turnover will be effected in a negative way.

Honestly huds and datamining is much more useful in cash games.
For sngs they can help a little but not so important. A lot of sngs decisions are based around playing your hand rather than your opponent, largely due to stack sizes.

I wouldnt be too worried about being cheated at these stakes and I think you can be very confident that no one can see your cards. This is actually one of the advantages of datamining. Because sites like PTR datamine every single hand that is played, they gather a large collection of data on all players. This data can then be used to detect anomalies in play. In fact Pokertableratings has been involved in outing the scandal on the Cereus network in which an employee could see hole cards.

Now I'm not saying there is 0 percent chance of being cheated, but its close to 0 on sites like stars and I would imagine it is 0 on the stakes youre playing.

You're chance of getting cheated is probably higher at live games than online, even if you only play at B&M casinos. If you play home/private games it's obviously way higher. There are some "gray area" things online like datamining or multiaccounting (many networks allow one or both of them - FTP & Stars don't), but actual cheating is very rare.

As Jack0 said already, the positive effect of very comprehensive datamining of online poker is that it makes it much harder for anyone to cheat (other than using datamined handhistories) without getting caught. It would be naive to say that no one could possibly ever see your hole cards online, but the chance of that (or other similar forms of cheating) is significantly higher at live games.