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Reuters: Full Tilt Poker, Pokerstars and Absolute Poker charged with illegal gambling Reuters: Full Tilt Poker, Pokerstars and Absolute Poker charged with illegal gambling

04-16-2011 , 02:00 AM
gg
04-16-2011 , 02:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Free Phil Ivey
The interpretation of this particular section is CRITICAL. The first question is what does it mean to be involved in "the business of betting or wagering" pursuant to 31 USC 5363. To find the answer you first look to 31 USC 5362 for the definition of the term "bet or wager". The definitions from Section 5362 for "bet or wager" can be found here. The definition is long or I would post it here but the first part states:

(1) Bet or wager.— The term “bet or wager”—
(A) means the staking or risking by any person of something of value upon the outcome of a contest of others, a sporting event, or a game subject to chance, upon an agreement or understanding that the person or another person will receive something of value in the event of a certain outcome;

Remember this law was originally intended to ban sports betting. That is clear from the statute. Is poker "a game subject to chance" or is it a game of skill? All things in life are subject to "chance". Chance is a term usually used for lotteries. Furthermore, federal courts have already ruled that poker does not fit this definition.

Another thing to keep in mind, take a look at Section 2 of Section 5362. It states:

(2) Business of betting or wagering.— The term “business of betting or wagering” does not include the activities of a financial transaction provider, or any interactive computer service or telecommunications service.

This is not cut and dry folks. The DOJ is going to have a hell of a time making this stick imo.
You're a fool.

Look up the success rate of DOJ indictments. The feds do not indict unless it's at least an open court lay up. The conviction rate is something like 95%.
04-16-2011 , 02:02 AM
FTP has finally barred US players
04-16-2011 , 02:03 AM
boy, if only the reid bill had passed...
04-16-2011 , 02:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug_Funnie
count me in
i lold hard at your name/avatar/location
04-16-2011 , 02:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by VictumSempra
FTP has finally barred US players
No, I'm on FTP still sitting.
04-16-2011 , 02:04 AM
Quick update... has any U.S. player attempted to log on at Tilt in the last half-hour of this post? I've been able to log on and even buy in at a table all night. I just couldn't do anything in the cashier window. (Yeah, yeah, you all knew that.)

As of 10 minutes ago, when opening the client I was prompted for a software update. And, as one would guess, I can't download it.

So it seems our situation continues to deteriorate -- particularly for those hoping to trade money with a non-U.S. player.

Bleah.

By the way, with all the YouTube links to various applicable songs, did anyone post one for Steely Dan's "Black Friday?" I don't want to go back and look.


Quote:
Originally Posted by VictumSempra
FTP has finally barred US players
Edit: I see someone else DID notice this.
04-16-2011 , 02:04 AM
So, my money would be safe if it was in stars.

but since it is not in stars and it is in AP... is my money safe? what are the chances that I am ****ed?
04-16-2011 , 02:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfc
You're a fool.

Look up the success rate of DOJ indictments. The feds do not indict unless it's at least an open court lay up. The conviction rate is something like 95%.

Closer to 100%.


The DOJ is basically above any type of law or constitutional restraint. They are not elected and will burn anyone to the ground.


Star/Tilt will be scorched. The DOJ will never lose face. Heads DOJ wins/ Tails DOJ does not lose.
04-16-2011 , 02:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Free Phil Ivey
The interpretation of this particular section is CRITICAL. The first question is what does it mean to be involved in "the business of betting or wagering" pursuant to 31 USC 5363. To find the answer you first look to 31 USC 5362 for the definition of the term "bet or wager". The definitions from Section 5362 for "bet or wager" can be found here. The definition is long or I would post it here but the first part states:

(1) Bet or wager.— The term “bet or wager”—
(A) means the staking or risking by any person of something of value upon the outcome of a contest of others, a sporting event, or a game subject to chance, upon an agreement or understanding that the person or another person will receive something of value in the event of a certain outcome;

Remember this law was originally intended to ban sports betting. That is clear from the statute. Is poker "a game subject to chance" or is it a game of skill? All things in life are subject to "chance". Chance is a term usually used for lotteries. Furthermore, federal courts have already ruled that poker does not fit this definition.

Another thing to keep in mind, take a look at Section 2 of Section 5362. It states:

(2) Business of betting or wagering.— The term “business of betting or wagering” does not include the activities of a financial transaction provider, or any interactive computer service or telecommunications service.

This is not cut and dry folks. The DOJ is going to have a hell of a time making this stick imo.
This is a heartening post.

I think everyone's most concerned right now with getting all their money off these sites.

Nowwwwwww.... back to school.
04-16-2011 , 02:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary_Neville
No, I'm on FTP still sitting.
when you log out and log back in you will be blocked.
04-16-2011 , 02:05 AM
No sympathy for the people/companies that were indicted. Fraud/money laundering/bribery is dead serious and they should be punished heavily for it.

SCOTT TOM MAY BE GOING TO JAIL. Good news as far as I am concerned.

Sympathy to the players - yes. Could be a good thing in the long run though if legislation ever gets passed, and then players can play on legit, regulated sites instead of shady sites like the ones being indicted today.
04-16-2011 , 02:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimTimSalabim
If online poker dies, B&M poker will be hurt in the long run, not helped imo.
This is def true. I'm a b&m reg who doesn't play online, but the sheer number of FTP/PS commercials on tv always made me smile bc of promotion of poker.

Will these be gone?
04-16-2011 , 02:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilbury Twist
Quick update... has any U.S. player attempted to log on at Tilt in the last half-hour of this post? I've been able to log on and even buy in at a table all night. I just couldn't do anything in the cashier window. (Yeah, yeah, you all knew that.)

As of 10 minutes ago, when opening the client I was prompted for a software update. And, as one would guess, I can't download it.
The update = the U.S. player block
04-16-2011 , 02:06 AM
let people do whatever they want with their money.

sell licenses for those who pretend to operate legaly and tax players and poker rooms.

go after those who operate whitout a license.
04-16-2011 , 02:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfc
The conviction rate is something like 95%.
we got pot odds bro
04-16-2011 , 02:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilbury Twist
Quick update... has any U.S. player attempted to log on at Tilt in the last half-hour of this post? I've been able to log on and even buy in at a table all night. I just couldn't do anything in the cashier window. (Yeah, yeah, you all knew that.)

As of 10 minutes ago, when opening the client I was prompted for a software update. And, as one would guess, I can't download it.
So it seems our situation continues to deteriorate -- particularly for those hoping to trade money with a non-U.S. player.

Bleah.

By the way, with all the YouTube links to various applicable songs, did anyone post one for Steely Dan's "Black Friday?" I don't want to go back and look.




Edit: I see someone else DID notice this.
+1
04-16-2011 , 02:06 AM
YESSSS LESS US PLAYERS, MORE SPAINISH DONKS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
04-16-2011 , 02:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Free Phil Ivey
The interpretation of this particular section is CRITICAL. The first question is what does it mean to be involved in "the business of betting or wagering" pursuant to 31 USC 5363. To find the answer you first look to 31 USC 5362 for the definition of the term "bet or wager". The definitions from Section 5362 for "bet or wager" can be found here. The definition is long or I would post it here but the first part states:

(1) Bet or wager.— The term “bet or wager”—
(A) means the staking or risking by any person of something of value upon the outcome of a contest of others, a sporting event, or a game subject to chance, upon an agreement or understanding that the person or another person will receive something of value in the event of a certain outcome;

Remember this law was originally intended to ban sports betting. That is clear from the statute. Is poker "a game subject to chance" or is it a game of skill? All things in life are subject to "chance". Chance is a term usually used for lotteries. Furthermore, federal courts have already ruled that poker does not fit this definition.

Another thing to keep in mind, take a look at Section 2 of Section 5362. It states:

(2) Business of betting or wagering.— The term “business of betting or wagering” does not include the activities of a financial transaction provider, or any interactive computer service or telecommunications service.

This is not cut and dry folks. The DOJ is going to have a hell of a time making this stick imo.
Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I was just hoping you know about how to read a statute, and be one of the few people who realize that you cannot break a statute from the US code and then say "but the government was stealing from the corporate poker accounts so the sites had no choice but to keep the government from illegally seizing funds" since that is what a pre-law or an intelligent (yet naive) person would say. I hope this thread calms down and we can have calm posts such as these. Thanks for your time. I hope we the 2p2 community can rise above mass hysteria, social mania, and over-enthused emotional naivete.
04-16-2011 , 02:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishtofinaltable
This is def true. I'm a b&m reg who doesn't play online, but the sheer number of FTP/PS commercials on tv always made me smile bc of promotion of poker.

Will these be gone?
Yes. Tonight's PAD broadcast has already been cancelled.

Edit: err.. maybe not. They just said on Quadjacks it's being broadcast tonight. I still think it will disappear soon though.
04-16-2011 , 02:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilbury Twist
Quick update... has any U.S. player attempted to log on at Tilt in the last half-hour of this post? I've been able to log on and even buy in at a table all night. I just couldn't do anything in the cashier window. (Yeah, yeah, you all knew that.)

As of 10 minutes ago, when opening the client I was prompted for a software update. And, as one would guess, I can't download it.

So it seems our situation continues to deteriorate -- particularly for those hoping to trade money with a non-U.S. player.

Bleah.

By the way, with all the YouTube links to various applicable songs, did anyone post one for Steely Dan's "Black Friday?" I don't want to go back and look.




Edit: I see someone else DID notice this.
Just got the same thing. They even give a phone # to call if we want.
04-16-2011 , 02:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Free Phil Ivey
So long as Full Tilt and Pokerstars don't freak out they will prevail in court. The government has to prove these charges. Legal precedent is not on their side. The govt.'s case seems entirely circumstantial and appears built around the suspicious behavior of the sites interactions with processors.

The government will argue that PS and FT acted suspiciously and thus must have known that their conduct was illegal. That will not hold water in court, however, because FT and PS will attack the heart of the law and argue that online poker simply is not prohibited under any federal statute and therefore their suspicious activities with payment processors is utterly irrelevant.

The government is basically prosecuting a "thought crime" (PS and FT acted as if they knew what they were doing was illegal therefore it "was" illegal"). That is not how our legal system works. Even if you "think" you are committing a crime - no crime is committed if what you did actually was not a crime in the first place.

Yes I am pissed off. Just read the press released by the DOJ and you can see it is a publicity stunt. It actually reads more like an advertisement for future political careers than a serious prosecution of criminal conduct. Yes I play online poker for a good % of my disposable income. Yes I am an attorney. Yes my firm will be defending anyone charged under this bull**** law pro bono.

The FBI and DOJ better be hoping and praying that no terrorist attack or other major crimes hit within the near future or heads will roll (as they should). What a disgrace.
I think ur an idiot not a lawyer. I like how you claim moral ground and will represent everyone in this thread, except you will rep no one in this thread because you used a new name to post that lie. . . .and you didnt advertise your firm. If the indictment read like an advertisment for furure political careers it would be filled with back patting names which it does not. The truth is these guys were buying banks and paying vigs to keep up the con. They were BUYING BANKS SO THE BANKS WOULD VIOLATE THE UIGEA. NO BANKS WOULD DO IT ANYMORE, SO THEY GOT THEIR OWN. That inst a thought crime, and Im curious as to how an esquire would actually use that phrase. PS and FT were working together, with shill companies, and fraudulent books, and then made fraudulent transactions under the auspices of a payoff to violate the law. Go ahead do your pro bono work, as most of your income is poker based and not legal retainers, id suggest you not charge for your work.
04-16-2011 , 02:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfc
You're a fool.

Look up the success rate of DOJ indictments. The feds do not indict unless it's a slam dunk. The win rate is something like 95%.
You are an idiot who is not worth my response. Nevertheless - to answer your question the DOJ success rate at trial (which is all that matters) is 77-80%. Contrary to you uninformed opinion that is not 100%. I have experience dealing with DOJ attorneys and have beat them - so have many other competent attorneys. Most of the time the accused cannot afford competent counsel. That is not the case here.

Furthermore, most criminal prosecutions are straight forward cases that are easy to prosecute - they are basically impossible for the government to lose. This is not one of those cases you ****ing idiot.
04-16-2011 , 02:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimTimSalabim
Yes. Tonight's PAD broadcast has already been cancelled.
I'm watching it right now...
04-16-2011 , 02:09 AM
Full Tilt down, the update doesn't load and you can't sign on without it.

Sry, false alarm, it did get through finally. Client seems to work, games are still on.

Last edited by Takemusu Aiki; 04-16-2011 at 02:16 AM.

      
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