Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > General Poker Discussion > News, Views, and Gossip

Notices

News, Views, and Gossip For poker news, views, and gossip

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-03-2012, 06:18 PM   #676
Pooh-Bah
 
sqwerty12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: sometimes at home, sometimes not
Posts: 4,664
Re: Response regarding money I owe to Full Tilt

This thread really needs another post from Barry about now....and perhaps one from Durrr who i'm sure is following it closely also
sqwerty12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2012, 06:19 PM   #677
journeyman
 
scar3face's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 258
Re: Response regarding money I owe to Full Tilt

FT owes me $0.

BG owes me $0.

But BG is a straight up honest boss.

Just my $0.02
scar3face is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2012, 06:23 PM   #678
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
zachvac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 13,563
Re: Response regarding money I owe to Full Tilt

Quote:
Originally Posted by GLUIPERIG View Post
You think that a "player to player" transfer to BG's account on FTP is going to hold up in a court of law as an official loan with agreement to repay if nothing was signed? Something tells me not so likely. Now of course I have no idea the behind the scenes details, but if nothing was signed, then he and the rest of the players are not going to be legally required to repay anything shipped to them under the table. This whole damn thing is so ****ed up that I just want to puke.
He just admitted in an interview and on a poker forum that he owes a debt, I think that would be enough for it to hold up in court.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BalugaWhale View Post
I understand that it's not fair, but I think there is <1% chance of the DOJ repaying ROW players.

Andrew
I'll try to find the quote but I'm like 90% sure I remember a statement from the DoJ saying that in the case of bankruptcy there would be no prejudice between US and RoW accounts, that all creditors including shareholders owed money as well as all players would be treated the same in terms of the fact that they had a debt owed to them by an insolvent company that could not deliver 100% of it. It's possible I misread this and that only covers assetts FTP currently owns and not money seized but I believe it was talking about both.

edit: dothemath beat me to it
zachvac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2012, 06:24 PM   #679
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 243
Re: Response regarding money I owe to Full Tilt

Quote:
Originally Posted by scar3face View Post
FT owes me $0.

BG owes me $0.

But BG is a straight up honest boss.

Just my $0.02
That's more like your $1,000,000. I mean, the guy didn't defend Russ Hamilton post superuser scandal. He didn't defend Lederer, Ferguson, and Ivey post Black Friday. He didn't welch on $400,000 to Full Tilt. He didn't...Oh wait...
NutRush is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2012, 06:32 PM   #680
Pooh-Bah
 
DoTheMath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: At my computer
Posts: 4,206
Re: Response regarding money I owe to Full Tilt

Quote:
Originally Posted by BaseMetal View Post
I have plenty of respect for Barry and I think he will be attempting to do his best in this difficult situation. I am a row player and I am owed a reasonable amount but I don't hold Barry responsible for all this mess.
I hope we all get our funds back but I am a little confused as to where it all is. According to some reports several months ago the DOJ had seized 331 million.
The amount seized by the DOJ between 28 June 2007 and 28 June 2011 was approx $331 million (Roughly enough to cover the estimated frozen player funds).

Somewhere I can remember reading that GBT will be handing over another 80 million to be allowed to do the deal. This combined seems to be much more than owed to the usa players (reported as approx $150 million) - I suspect lawyers and accountants get plenty of it - but doesn't some of the 331 mill belong to the row players as FTP carried on using their funds to allow the usa to play. I wonder why the row lawyers didn't throw a pile of spanners in so they could divvie it all up between lawyers.

Did the DOJ seize actually 331 million? It seems only $300 million is owed to usa/row players combined.

It is all very complicated, at the moment I certainly hope the GBT deal goes ahead and I expect Barry will do the right thing. Life is complicated and I don't see him as the villain.

Tbh as a naive and bit of a fool when it comes to international law it kind of looks a bit like the doj have swiped it. Are they actually allowed to use this money in any way or do they just keep it while it all evaporates in various costs?
The AGCC report referenced in your first link has been shown by Subject: Poker to be erroneous. FTP's shortfall or loss from all sources may have been about $330M, but a substantial portion of that was not seized by the DoJ. For instance, over $100M is from phantom deposits. The DoJ amost certainly does not have and will not have enough to cover the full amount of all player balances. It is uncertain whether the DoJ can get posession of money legally available for use for compensation that will be sufficient to cover the amount of US player balances.
DoTheMath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2012, 06:48 PM   #681
Pooh-Bah
 
Bene Gesserit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: my old Kentucky Home
Posts: 4,253
Re: Response regarding money I owe to Full Tilt

Quote:
Originally Posted by NutRush View Post
No love for this?!? This is from Ace Up My Sleeve, right? 2G2BT
Ace on the River Ace up my Sleeve was a CF& HL book pre BF
Bene Gesserit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2012, 06:50 PM   #682
Pooh-Bah
 
DoTheMath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: At my computer
Posts: 4,206
Re: Response regarding money I owe to Full Tilt

Quote:
Originally Posted by flpokerplayer View Post
Can anyone focus on pre bf and if it was ok to get a loan from a site you dont work for? Regular players couldnt get loans. Because you are a popular pro does that make you more special than anyone else? What is the difference from you and the players that floated funds knowing the $$ was not coming out of the bank accounts? That is a loan pretty much and they are getting trashed, rightly so.
According to the rules supposedly governing FTP, it was wrong to give players a loan. There is nothing in the rules that says it is wrong to get a loan.

Most people wouldn't be able to get a loan from a casino, but some casinos made a business decsion that Barry could, based on his track record and the stakes he played. Was it wrong for him to take advantage of such an opportunity?

The difference between these FTP player loans and those phantom depositors who deliberately took advantage of FTP's payment processing difficulties (and who are rightly getting trashed) is that these depositors never intended to pay up, under any circumstance. Barry is more like the people who made deposits that never cleared but had every intention that the deposit should clear. Some people are trashing these depositors too, but not rightly so.
DoTheMath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2012, 06:52 PM   #683
grinder
 
Bubbleblower's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 684
Re: Response regarding money I owe to Full Tilt

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoTheMath View Post
The AGCC report referenced in your first link has been shown by Subject: Poker to be erroneous. FTP's shortfall or loss from all sources may have been about $330M, but a substantial portion of that was not seized by the DoJ. For instance, over $100M is from phantom deposits. The DoJ amost certainly does not have and will not have enough to cover the full amount of all player balances. It is uncertain whether the DoJ can get posession of money legally available for use for compensation that will be sufficient to cover the amount of US player balances.
That report is correct, but they apparently made an error in their initial statement, which they corrected. According to the report the 331M consists of 42M stolen, 131M phantom deposits and 58M seized.
The total shortfall was 346M.
Bubbleblower is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2012, 06:55 PM   #684
journeyman
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: heading to Ottawa for a PARTY!!!
Posts: 258
Re: Response regarding money I owe to Full Tilt

Because I care here is my plan!

Barry you give me the $400G-I will put it safely in my high interest savings account and when the deal is done (at this rate should be about 2025) I will give GBT the $400G unless US players have not been paid in full in which case I will give it to the DOJ.
This will take the pressure off you and you can go back to being the stand up guy everybody thinks you are. This will make everybody happy as GBT will have security in knowing his funds are safe as long as the deal goes through.
Wizzard89 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2012, 06:58 PM   #685
grinder
 
Iamcloud's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 645
Re: Response regarding money I owe to Full Tilt

Quote:
Originally Posted by dumboldguy View Post
Because he doesn't owe the money to the Tapie Group. He owes it to Full Tilt. This obligation (BG -> Full Tilt) would be considered an asset on the company's books, assuming they actually kept books as opposed to Bitar writing things in crayons on cocktail napkins. But since TG hasn't actually acquired FT (and its assets) yet, it has no business laying its hands on any of these debts.

Basically what TG is doing is offering to forgive a portion of BG's debt to FT in exchange for sending them money, even though TG doesn't actually have the legal right to forgive this debt at this point. From BG's perspective it would be a little risky because if the acquisition of FT by BG falls through for whatever reason (*ahem Chris Ferguson*), BG would have gotten nothing in exchange for whatever % of this debt he gives to BG. This risk may be small, but it's there.

And of course there's the ethical point that BG makes that this money belongs to the players and not TG. There's also a financial aspect to this point. Let's say TG is willing cut Barry a deal where they'd forgive 25% of his debt if he pays TG directly. TG then acquires FT and negotiates a deal with the DOJ where the US players end up collecting only 50 cents on the dollar (because there isn't enough to go around). Who wins and who loses here? Barry wins because he extinguishes a $400k debt for only $300k. TG wins because it gets $300k that it wouldn't have collected if it acquired FT with this debt outstanding (I'm assuming here that the DOJ will require that all debts outstanding to FT will, if collected, go into the DOJ player payout pool). Who loses? The players, as usual.

BG is absolutely in the right here. Until such time as the contours of the arrangement to pay out the players are clear, neither he nor anyone who owes money to FT should give it to the Tapie Group.
I think the above post sums it up really nicely.
Iamcloud is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2012, 07:02 PM   #686
Pooh-Bah
 
DoTheMath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: At my computer
Posts: 4,206
Re: Response regarding money I owe to Full Tilt

Quote:
Originally Posted by blueodum View Post
Generally speaking, it is the the right thing to pay back a loan in a timely manner, though there are exceptions (I personally don't believe this is one of them). Barry didn't do that, which now leaves him in an awkward spot.
Effectively, the type of loan Barry got was a demand loan. With a demand loan "in a timely manner" means when you are asked to pay. Barry says he wasn't asked to pay before BF.

After BF, but before a settlement it is not clear that Barry paying would have resulted in any more money being available to pay any players. Barry claims he is hanging on to the money until it is clear it will go to players, rather than be burned up in FTP's meltdown or going to some foreign company who might not pay players. There is a legal argument that money paid to the DoJ for assets seized in relation to the original charges can not go to players. Money put into a fund set up for the specific purpose of compensating players will go to players. Would you rather he took the risk and paid now, or waited until it was clear the money would go to players?
DoTheMath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2012, 07:10 PM   #687
old hand
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,295
Re: Response regarding money I owe to Full Tilt

Quote:
According to the report the 331M consists of 42M stolen, 131M phantom deposits and 58M seized.
The total shortfall was 346M.
It only adds up to 231M
blueodum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2012, 07:11 PM   #688
journeyman
 
Sargent D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 301
Re: Response regarding money I owe to Full Tilt

It's ridiculous that Barry should pay anything until it is assured that the players will get paid their money.
Sargent D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2012, 07:15 PM   #689
newbie
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 45
Re: Response regarding money I owe to Full Tilt

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubbleblower View Post
That report is correct, but they apparently made an error in their initial statement, which they corrected. According to the report the 331M consists of 42M stolen, 131M phantom deposits and 58M seized.
The total shortfall was 346M.
Thanks for the info - I thought it odd that they seemed to have enough to cover this mess. It's all still pretty wild and messy. 42M stolen, phew, I am not sure what a phantom deposit consists of (sounds a bit like 131M of very smelly stuff) or what the difference phatom is to stolen.
BaseMetal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2012, 07:17 PM   #690
old hand
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,295
Re: Response regarding money I owe to Full Tilt

Quote:
After BF, but before a settlement it is not clear that Barry paying would have resulted in any more money being available to pay any players. Barry claims he is hanging on to the money until it is clear it will go to players, rather than be burned up in FTP's meltdown or going to some foreign company who might not pay players. There is a legal argument that money paid to the DoJ for assets seized in relation to the original charges can not go to players. Money put into a fund set up for the specific purpose of compensating players will go to players. Would you rather he took the risk and paid now, or waited until it was clear the money would go to players?
I would rather he followed his own advice and paid back FTP as soon as he had 400K, not "several years later".

Beyond that, in a selfish sense, I would rather he paid FTP after April 15th, because that would mean I would have had a slightly improved chance of withdrawing my money before FTP shut down completely (my second withdrawal to Moneybookers was held up for several weeks and finally finished in limbo when the company shut down).

I have said all along, that BG should escrow conditional on the deal being finalized. If the deal goes through, GBT has to pay RoW. Paying U.S. players is the DoJ's responsibility, not Barry's and not GBT's.

When I borrow money from a friend, I don't ask him what he will do with it when I pay it back. The whole notion that BG gets to decide what happens to the money he owes is loopy.
blueodum is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:32 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0 ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.
Copyright 2008-2010, Two Plus Two Interactive