Ok guys, I see there’s too much complain on something I think it should be pretty clear by now. I had some free time, and decided I would research on Hellmuth being the greatest or not. Please read it all before u comment on anything. Skip the insults and the dumb comments, and smoke the hate cloud for 5 minutes only.



1) Haters: I think he is outdated since the poker boom
Truth: Since 2003 he’s got 4 WSOP bracelets. Since Moneymaker took down the ME he won 2 bracelets. But he cashed in 36 times just in the WSOP (6 in 2009, 5 in 2008 and 6 in 2007) and plus the 2 more bracelets. His winning rate remained clearly unchanged. In addition he won the NBC Heads Up Championship for the first time beating Chris Ferguson at the final. He also played 2 times against the young internet player, Tom Dwan, and he clearly outplayed him both times, in the first one getting sucked out with AA. The field was extremely tough and he had to beat the best of the best in the world. He also made 5 WPT final tables after the boom. I can count with the fingers of my hand the number of players who achieved such results after the poker boom.

2) He has as many NLHE records as nobody. In addition, he leads in all WSOP records outhere.
• He owns the record for WSOP bracelets with 11
• He owns the record for WSOP final tables with 45
• He owns the record for WSOP cashes with 75


Now let's take a look at his winnings after the poker boom (2003):
In 2003, $ 1,160,832
In 2004, $ 96,441 (adjustment)
In 2005, $ 845,810
In 2006, $ 1,271,502
In 2007, $ 932,324
In 2008, $ 1,156,544

These numbers shows mainly a lot of consistency. And it shows that the poker boom did not affect Hellmuth as much. If we state that the boom made effect in 2004, we could see it was his worst year. However it's really atonishing they way he adjusted to keep his winning rate at the top. Right after that, he made almost 1 million dollars in tournaments winnings until 2009. I can hardly name 2 players who have achieved such amazing winnings after the poker boom in such a consistent basis. Another fact that he is not outdated since the poker boom. His bad 2009 is more likely to be part of variance or external factors, than of an outdated issue.

Actually his biggest winnings come right after the poker boom. Before 2003, only in 1989 he cashed for over 1 million dollars. So his best years were after the boom, making his outdated image after Moneymaker's accomplishment completely unreasonable.

He won the Main Event in 1989 where only the best of the best in the world played. He had to beat the toughest field back in the day, and Johnny Chan in the HU match. He was the younger ME champion until Eastgate's win in 2008.


3) Haters: He is only good against weak players that’s why he struggles in the WPT.
Truth: Hellmuth weakest area might be the WPT but he is still above average and above many of the “WPT Legends”. He has 8 final tables in the WPT in total if we count the WPT invitational as well, having played just 63 tournament. Which gives an average of 1 final tables for every 7 tournaments played. Without the invitationals he would have 5 WPT Final Tables, 12 cashes and $953,486 in total winnings.

Even if we take each of his 63 tourneys as 10k a piece (which they were not) he would have an outstanding 151% ROI only at the WPT. If you use a more reasonable average of $7500/event, his ROI in WPT events only goes to 202%, and it's not like he has one big score among a bunch of washouts - it's consistent scores. He also has an 18% ITM (in the money) which is another remarkable stat. (thanks to Punker)

In other words , he has outstanding results even in his weakest area.





4) The actual tournament money list is lead by Phil Ivey with $12,813,990 in tournaments earnings. Phil Hellmuth is in 4th place in this list with $11,173,271. However, thehendonmob.com recently added a more accurate moneylist adjusted by inflation, and the result is the following:





1st Phil Hellmuth Jr
$ 14,117,486
2nd Daniel Negreanu
$ 14,015,486
3rd Phil Ivey
$ 13,904,244
4th T.J. Cloutier
$ 13,107,251
5th Jamie Gold
$ 13,017,116
6th Scotty Nguyen
$ 12,579,060
7th Erik Seidel
$ 12,062,291
8th Johnny Chan
$ 11,954,760
9th Joe Hachem
$ 11,894,043
10th Men 'The Master' Nguyen
$ 11,471,319
11th Allen Cunningham
$ 11,370,456
12th Peter Eastgate
$ 10,784,587
13th John Juanda
$ 10,775,780

(This is an inflation adjusted ranking list; this means that the cash amounts won/used in the list are changed to reflect their current value after US Dollar (not venue's local currency) inflation has been taken into account. It shows what amount the player would win if the tournament would be played today. This gives better accuracy when comparing relatively old winnings with the most recent ones.) source: thehendonmob.com

Phil Hellmuth is in first place with just over $14 million dollars in tournament earnings, making him the winningest tournament player of all time.



5) He has 280% ROI in his live tournaments if he played 80% of the total tournaments (which he did not) This is flat out sick for a player who played so many live tournaments like Hellmuth. Probably the most impressive stat ever.

The following list includes all of his titles over $1,000 buy in live tournaments. Nobody in the history of poker won as many live tournaments as he did. Here is the list:

1st WSOP $10,000 No Limit Hold'em Main Event
1st $1,500 Pot Limit Hold'em Hall of Fame (1991)
1st WSOP $5,000 Limit Hold'em (1992)
1st WSOP $1,500 No Limit Hold'em (1993)
1st WSOP $1,500 No Limit Hold'em (1993)
1st WSOP $5,000 Limit Hold'em (1993)
1st $1,000 Omaha Hi/Lo Jim Brady Month (1993)
1st $1,000 Limit Hold'em Queens Poker Classic
1st $2,000 Pot Limit Omaha Legends of Poker
1st $1,500 Limit Hold'em Hall of Fame Poker Classic
1st $5,000 Hall of Fame Championship (1995)
1st WSOP $3,000 Pot Limit Hold'em (1997)
1st $1,500 Limit Hold'em Carnivale of Poker
1st $1,500 Limit Hold'em Hall of Fame Poker Classic
1st $1,000 No Limit Hold'em L.A. Poker Classic
1st $1,000 Limit Hold'em Four Queens Poker Classic
1st $1,000 No Limit Hold'em Jack Binion World Poker
1st Grand Final Late Night Poker Seris 3 (2000)
1st WSOP $2,000 No Limit Hold'em (2001)
1st ATS $10,000 No Limit Hold'em Austrian Master
1st $1,000 Omaha Hi/Lo L.A. Poker Classic (2003)
1st WSOP $2,500 Limit Hold'em (2003)
1st WSOP $3,000 No Limit Hold'em (2003)
1st National Heads Up Poker Championship (2005)
1st $10,000 No Limit Hold'em (1988)
1st WSOP $1,000 No Limit Hold'em w/rebuys (2006)
1st WSOP $1,500 No Limit Hold'em (2007)
1st $20,000 Poker After Dark III "Dream Table"
1st $20,000 Poker After Dark III "Hecklers"
1st $50,000 Poker After Dark IV Heads Up Challenge
1st No Limit Hold'em Invitational (2006)
Source: thehendonmob.com




Haters: I hate his behavior on the table
Truth: He is good for ratings, he is good for TV, he is good for poker, people genuily LOVE to watch him on TV specially when he blows up, he earned millions thanks to the brat brand, and he is an excellent entertainer. Outside of poker, he is one of the nicest pros you will ever meet. He is very kind to his fans as well. He is also working on it, and the last WPT is a good example of it.


Conclusion:

When I made the research I was so surprized by the amount of records and incredible stats he has. I'm sure I'm still missing tons of other records and stuff, but since he has such an incredible career with so many amazing results, it's very hard to put in on one page. He is strong in every aspect of the game, even in cashgames he is a lifetime winner. Back in the day he made a living playing cashgames as most poker players do.
Im not saying he is the best player in the world right now, not at all. Phil Ivey is, without a doubt. However Hellmuth occupies the place for being the greatest tournament player to ever play the game. Ivey did not win as much as Hellmuth did over the last 20 years in tournament poker. He plays few tournaments? he is not that motivated? whatever the real reason is, the truth is that he is not even close to Hellmuth's success and achievements so far. If Stu Ungar would have played 100 more tournament he would probably be the greatest, but unfortunately that did not happen, and it would be stupid to make further assumptions on something it did not happen. Hellmuth beat the test of time, he has amazing results as nobody ever had, and I think we should give him credit for that.








In b4:
Hellmuth haters
Hellmuth haters crying
Hellmuth haters arguing without arguments
Hellmuth haters trolling the thread
Hellmuth haters getting owned imo.

First post huh? Hi Phil.


Seriously though, [ ]People hate Phil based on his poker skills.
[x] People hate Phil, because he's a massive douche in every televised event.

whoa, u wasted your time to collect all that data so 95% of people who will chime in this thread could flame u? get a hobby, bro.

All you hellmuth haters are just jealous.


I love seeing him win.

Phil Helmuth's poker skillz:

[ ] as good as he thinks/says he is
[ ] as bad as 2+2 thinks he is
[x] somewhere in between what he thinks and what 2+2 thinks

Also, hi Phil!

hey buddy, this is not an opinion whether he is the greatest or not, it's all facts and stats that speak for themselves.

the amount of tournaments phil has played over 20 years is probably what some online mtters play in a month. sample size ldo

Interesting thread and a good read, I like Hellmuth, he is a great player and good for tv.

The people that hate him for being a "douche",are they also the same people that like ziigmund?, for the way he puts people down in chats and is so funny ****** around with people?

He hasn't won a 10k event since 1989.


/thread

numbers don't like fellas, Phil is the best poker player alive. take it or leave it, PHIL IS DA MAN!

Hellmuth's first tournament cash is from 1987, Ivey's first is from 1998.

this guy gets it

The rest of your post is somewhat solid, but this one is supported by air. You don't know how many tournies he's entered so you have no clue what his ROI is. Allegedly Phil plays every WSOP tourney possible and has for years, which makes total sense because his business is to sell himself as the greatest WSOP champ and the more tourneys, the more bracelets, the more famous/marketable the Brat is.

Last year alone he could have spent close to $250k in buyins for the WSOP events. He's won over $2.4M the last 4 years, so he's definitely got a great WSOP ROI during that span, but unless you know how much he spent in the leaner years previous to that you can't really estimate his long run ROI.

Then you have the fact he's made almost nothing in the WPT and those are $10k events. I have no idea how many he plays a year, but it sure seems like he probably has a negative ROI in the WPT.

I think Phil is clearly a good tournament player, but his huge volume of tournies he's entered makes his accomplishments seem greater than they are..

Phil bitches too much.

He acts like he is the only one who gets sucked out on.

isnt there a PH thread for all this kinda stuff? if not there should be. this thread is done every ****ing week.

I refuse to believe any of this ****!

[X] OP was paid by Phil $5k+ to improve his reputation on 2+2 forums
[X] Phil is reading this thread nervously as we speak
[ ] Phil is the best tournament player
[X] Phil is a good tournament player
[ ] Phil is cool and respected in the poker world
[X] Phil is a cry baby arrogant welp of a man
[ ] Phil has cheated on his wife
[X] Phil has tried

Best ever imo

Solid Topic. Original Poster backed up his facts and used legit statements.

[ ] first post

It's the same obsessive angry dude as andreyit/reefinup/techan12/whatever

Come on, man... What you are doing isn't healthy. Stop caring about a random card player so much. Have you ever actually seen him play a hand of poker? He is not that good, honestly.

But how much did he lose?

you can't really make an argument about sample size with live events as there just aren't nearly enough live tourneys to get a decent sample size by online standards.

interesting read but he is so far up his own ass that even if he was the best..which i still don't think he is people would still have a problem with him. I also found the comment by someone saying Iveys first score was 1998? interesting as for the future of Ivey in tourneys.

If TJ Cloutier won that much why did he need to pawn his bracelet?

2 post?? Are you P Hellmuth? or his nephew?

craps LDO