So, is UB as fishy as people say it is? That seems to be the message I am getting from this thread so far...

It shouldn't matter to anyone with a gram of integrity how fishy or not it is.

About the only thing in this thread you've said that makes sense.

I play poker to make money, not to demonstrate my "integrity". If I thought UB was safe to play on, which I still have majors doubts about, and it really was as fishy as many people say, then I would certainly play there.

Money is much more important to me than trying to punish UB for the cheating affair. I imagine the same is true for most people to be honest...

That's fine if that's how you want to go through life. I'm not sure if you would feel the same if you had been stolen off though, would you continue to play on that site as long as it was +ev?

There's also a difference between 'demonstrating' your integrity, and, well actually having it.

If money is that important to you then you are being short sighted. Read my previous posts on why I actually think it's worse for you in the long run.

The main reason I play poker is to make money. If playing on UB helps me do so then of course I will play there. The fact that other people might not like that choice is irrelevent to me.

The reality is that I don't have enough confidence in them, so I don't play there. It is not a question of integrity or principles. It comes down to the same thing it always comes down to in the end when playing poker - money.

Gullinians attitude is typical of this forum.
Focusing on the past and not on the current issues which are threatening online poker.

Take bots for example.
I posted a thread some time ago highlighting the world of poker bots and how big they are becoming. How some sites do nothing about them. How there are bots running out there making massive sums. I included a link to a big botting forum that help each other make bots. Here you can see a lot of info on which sites combat bots and what measures the makers take to go undetected. On how to go about making bots etc.
Make no mistake this problem is big and growing. With the ease of datamining the bots will only become more powerful. Yet the majority of sites have no detection methods or dont put enough resources into detection.
Of course my thread was closed because 2plus2 prefer to keep this issue quite, rather then to discuss and make people aware of the issues.
Very much like the pokersites themselves, they keep everything hush hush and are happy as long as the rake is coming in.

Fair enough, I misread your initial statement.

This may be of interest to you then:

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2...168983#3168983

It is a question on one of the industrys leading programming Q&A sites about defeating a poker bot. I provided an answer that attempted to tackle the question, and came to the conclusion that there actually is very little you can do at the end of the day. The fact you can't do much currently about it doesn't make it right by any means.

Also your point that bots are going to get better with "the ease of datamining" is complete nonscense. It is a tenuous and uneducated relationship that is foundless and speculative. Read the Q&A site.

Is my attitude typical? Not really. I've shown your insulting attitude patience, and engaged you in discussion even though I beleive you are a shill who is just wasting my time.

You are derailing this thread slightly talking about bots that plague other sites. So I invite you to contribute on Stack Overflow and look forward to engaging you in discussion on there about the bot issue, as I am also very interested in current issues, but let's keep the discussion in here on topic.

How is UB being scummy bastards that continuously get into new scandals while the haven't even tried to resolve (but tried to cover up in a hilariously bad way) the superuser scandal a thing of the past? Seriously, what are you doing? Do you really think you can divert attention by bringing up other issues (which are serious, but not the ones where talking about here)?

WAtR: Your point is obviously that of many people that continue to play at UB (only I'd say your assessment of the risk is better) and obviously everybody can see your point. But 2 things; Its not a matter of demonstrating principles/intergrity but of having them... And there are plenty of people who do play poker for a living who simply disagree and in some cases let morals prevail over making money. Just a question of priorities...

I understand and respect the opinions of the people who intensely dislike UB. But to suggest that the people who play on UB have no integrity is absurd - it is not a question of integrity or morals but simply a question of money. I regard myself as having integrity in poker - I would never cheat somebody out of their money or angle shoot - and I am sure many UB players feel the same.

By all means feel free to dislike their choice to play on UB and by all means campaign against UB in whatever way you see fit but the idea that people have not got integrity simply because they do not agree with your opinion on UB is crazy.

On a side note, I think the winning players you mention above are on risky ground by bringing up morals here. Much of their income derives from exploiting people with serious gambling problems. I think most ordinary people would have more of an issue with this than the decision of some players to play on a site with a history of corruption...

Good points, thanks for sharing and I agree that my comment about not having any integrity was overboard.

Maybe. Probably self-respect a better phrase.

Sad things about the internet is that I expect to get flamed no matter what I wright. You are a gentleman!

WAtR: First of all, I think this is more a case of principles/morals than of integrity...

You obviously can not say someone playing at UB for the money has no morals, they (you) might be very moral in other cases. But not in this one. Having money prevail over morals, is not moral. Supporting crooks is not moral. So if you'd play at UB you might definitely have morals, not cheat/angleshoot whatever and be an all around nice guy, but you are still doing an immoral thing by playing there. IMO its definitely fair to bring up morality in this case, just as "I dont care about that, I only care about the money" doesn't imply that you are an immoral person all-day every-day.

Very true, playing poker for a living is not the most moral thing to do in any case. That still shouldn't prevent anyone to do the moral thing in other cases, playing poker for a living at *whatever site* is more moral than playing at UB (you might be exploiting people for money in any case, but in one case you support a legit company doing so and in the other case you support a bunch of scumbags).

Anyway this is turning into a semantic argument and is definitely off topic, so I'm out again...