PokerStars increasing rake, ending BoP promo, .... who will become the new #1 site? - Page 8 - Poker News

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PokerStars increasing rake, ending BoP promo, .... who will become the new #1 site?

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10-30-2014 , 01:34 PM

#176

PaulyJames200x

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Aug 2014 Posts: 4,027

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aces123123

The site needs to be in the Eu for tax reasons. So no. But my old 30% rakeback deal on the micro gaming network looks a lot better now.

The winning poker network sites are

Blackchippoker
Americas CardRoom
TruePoker

If you google, all the sites are .eu.

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10-30-2014 , 01:40 PM

#177

Nonteilla

stranger

Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 8

i don't know much about other sites' softwares, can they compete with stars'?

Quote

10-30-2014 , 01:43 PM

#178

Aces123123

adept

Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 784

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaulyJames200x

The winning poker network sites are

Blackchippoker
Americas CardRoom
TruePoker

If you google, all the sites are .eu.

Cool, I have to look into that. It is not enough that they have an .eu domain, they have to run their business in the eu.

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10-30-2014 , 01:51 PM

#179

Bejamin1

stranger

Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 14

Quote:

Originally Posted by yellowfever

Stars only needs the players who keep redepositing to play on. The players who never win but deposit often could care less about a doubling of rake. No fish with a decent job is gonna say "They just lowered my roi 10% omg"

All of us good players just take money from the fish and then make poker sites have to spend money to process payment to us. This move is just them saying we know the fish will pay double rake and dont care about the player who have made 1 deposit in 4 years who keep cutting checks.

This kind of blanket statement is a failure of basic comprehension. There are many, many, many players who would be winners in a reduced rake scenario. Most of which are casual players with some understanding of how to play solid poker. Obviously many will still be losers, but easily 30%+ could be winners in a better setup. And those winners would brag to their friends... and then poker actually grows. Those players only don't care about rake because they don't understand its impact on their results. Pokerstars takes advantage of that ignorance.

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10-30-2014 , 02:26 PM

#180

Two SHAE

Decentralized Financier

Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 2,242

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rupert

Code:

Stakes	Players	Stars	Party	888	iPoker		Stars Old
25c/50c	2	$1	$1	$1	$1		$0.50
	3-4	$1.50	$2	$4	$2		$1.50
	6	$2.50	$3	$4	$3		$2.50

$1/2	2	$1	$1	$1	$1		$0.50
	3-4	$1.50	$2	$4	$2		$1.50
	6	$2.80	$3	$4	$3		$2.80

$5/10	2	$1	$1	$1	$1		$0.50
	3-4	$1.50	$2	$2.50	$2		$1.50
	6	$3	$3	$4	$3		$3

$25/50	2	$1	N/A	$1	$2		$0.50
	3-4	$2	N/A	$2.50	$5		$1.50
	6	$5	N/A	$4	$5		$3

With rakeback as well, Stars still considerably cheaper. Stars will remain #1 site.

Ipoker 25/50 should read N/A as well. In addition, all ipoker games (and rake) are in EUR and GBP, so this comparison is a bit off anyway. iPoker rakeback is also super high.

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10-30-2014 , 02:42 PM

#181

monTiel.

newbie

Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sect7G

All regs should boycott the PCA as this will send a message that can't be ignored by the poker media.

This, and also should happen with EPTs and other live tournaments.

Last edited by monTiel.; 10-30-2014 at 02:56 PM.

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10-30-2014 , 03:41 PM

#182

happyniss

enthusiast

Join Date: Aug 2014 Posts: 58

Anyway, no drug, not even alcohol, causes the fundamental ills of society. If we're looking for the source of our troubles, we shouldn't test people for drugs, we should test them for stupidity, ignorance, greed and love of power.

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/ke...11zyLQqTgzw.99

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10-30-2014 , 03:47 PM

#183

bumpnrun

veteran

Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 2,888

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adversity

People who say stars don't need regs are completely wrong for several reasons, some of which have been voiced. The major one missing, however, is the actual allure of poker. Most recreationals actually don't play for enjoyment (mainly anyway). They don't play to gamble (they can easily and more conveniently bet on sports or play roulette simply to gamble). The allure of poker is actually being a reg. Every recreational thinks they are one day going to be the next Daniel Negreanu or Jungleman12

This is utterly wrong. I've been playing since 2005, my ROI is very good across 25k MTTs and would hate to have to play professionally.

For most recs with decent careers it's the same. They gamble on poker rather than other forms of gambling because it's more interactive/fun. You are actually the minority in wanting to "chase the dream"

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10-30-2014 , 04:34 PM

#184

LimpDitka

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 4,024

Heres my whole take on Amaya. I think they understand by raising rake and implementing a lot of these new controversial policies that they are alienating their customer base. BUT I dont think they care, I think theyre worried that more and more countries are going to ban online gaming, and they need to suck the industry dry before there is nothing left. Their approach seems to be less risk with a smaller reward.

They could have kept things as they were and generated less profit over a longer period of time, but its risky considering their player base can be shut down at anytime.

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10-30-2014 , 05:11 PM

#185

Rupert

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 4,774

Quote:

Originally Posted by Two SHAE

Ipoker 25/50 should read N/A as well. In addition, all ipoker games (and rake) are in EUR and GBP, so this comparison is a bit off anyway. iPoker rakeback is also super high.

Ya HU Stars is $2 25/50+ so a few errors. I played some iPoker 1/2 and 2/4, it's seemed almost entirely regs to me that were grinding out the RB. And that's pretty much what you can expect from low raking sites.

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10-30-2014 , 05:21 PM

#186

MikeyBu

adept

Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 799

Negreanu just tweeted that he'll have his opinion up soon. Don't know why he's bothering, he'll have to defend them no matter what.

Online poker world is going off his a heck of a lot recently and I can't see his popularity increasing once he posts

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10-30-2014 , 05:24 PM

#187

cbt

veteran

Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 2,959

lol best for him to just say nothing, seriously

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10-30-2014 , 05:24 PM

#188

NickPappas

enthusiast

Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 54

I assume this carries on to full tilt also but can anyone confirm this?

Considering switching to LHE.

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10-30-2014 , 05:27 PM

#189

ArtySmokes

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 6,999

There's an official statement from Eric Hollreiser being circulated to new sources.
e.g. http://www.bluff.com/news/pokerstars...ffected-61919/.

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10-30-2014 , 05:30 PM

#190

AKingdom

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 3,520

Surprised not to see more high stakes guys ITT pissed off at the higher rake.

Quote

10-30-2014 , 05:32 PM

#191

SandmanNess

veteran

Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 2,706

Well what do you know... When it was only HU and 6 max hypers getting the shaft, everyone was so quick to be like "Adapt and find another game if you're a pro" "you always have the option to play somewhere else", and my personal favorite "Stars doesn't owe you anything".

Now that changes are coming down that affect the cash guys, everyone is up in arms about how terrible the site is, "how dare they" "Stars is killing poker" blah blah blah.

Pretty funny how people don't give a **** if it doesn't affect them.

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10-30-2014 , 05:40 PM

#192

DirkkDiggler

banned

Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 427

im not a big fan of brands but pokerstars was the exeption. i was admiring rational group and the brand pokerstars. they were good with their consumers, gave a true chance to win big, nice promos and they knockout party and other sites with the beautiful software. the boutique was vip. you cant buy the brand with money only with points. it was brandly genius and i had the feeling to be in a elite, a lucky person who discover a way to get rich

when i began poker in 2009 its because pokerstars gave me 5$ just to try real money and i grind it up since that date. i made 15K vpp. i think its equal to 2700$ in rake. i guess it was a good deal for them.

i was hoping to use my knowledge of poker as a safe second income during all my life but now my dream is broken.

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10-30-2014 , 06:02 PM

#193

momo_the_kid

grinder

Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 627

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bejamin1

Bejamin1 From LiquidPoker (a casual grinder). Take this view with a grain of salt because I can't prove my conclusions, but I feel like I'm probably right.

I'm going to present my point of view because it seems like there are a good deal of players who think raising rake is actually a good decision for Pokerstars. In my opinion it's simply a ploy to generate additional short-term revenue and boost the stock price. It won't benefit the games at all.

In a zero sum poker economy what happens?
-Many players win
-Players brag to their friends about how much $$$ they are winning
-Friends deposit because "holy crap poker so cool easy money I'm gonna be the next Matt Damon" from Rounders

That's the sex-appeal of the game for recreational players. That's what it's always been. The idea of bragging to your friends about how you're winning. Even just moderately average players can win.

Now, obviously a rake free climate won't exist. And in-software advertising revenue generating model + greatly reduced rake however, is the best possible future for the poker economy. Many players have success. Lots of word of mouth. Lots of bragging and lots of new deposits. That's how the game spreads and grows. If Pokerstars were less greedy, they'd make more in the long term AND the game would survive just fine.

Right now, something like what 5% maybe 1% of players will be winning players over 100K+ hand samples? Most fish play maybe 15,000 hands in a year or some random number like that. They're still paying 10pt/bb rake too at that rate, except with their level of play most of them are dramatically losing players and only a few make money and cash out. That's not good for the poker economy. You want weak players, casuals, and fish to be winning fairly often and cashing out and bragging about it. That's hugely important to the poker economy to keep it growing.

Reduced rake is a win for everyone long term, including Pokerstars. They need to be more creative about their revenue. And frankly, they should eliminate the vast majority of "Pokerstars Pros" and support only a key few. It's ridiculous how many they are - vast majority of fish have no idea who these people are. I don't mind giving randoms on the final table 5k to wear a Pokerstars hat or whatever, but semi-permantly sponsoring a bunch of people who nobody gives a **** about is a waste of money.

Lastly - and maybe this will come as a surprise, but Pokerstars should basically eliminate Supernova Elite status and possibly Supernova as well. The FPP system should stay the same, but allow for reasonably acquireable bonuses at the highest rate for everyone. Make it work out to 40% rakeback for everyone or just two levels with Platimum being 25% RB or whatever it is and Supernova being 40%.

Why you ask? Well guess what, insane amounts of mass grinders does what to the games? It creates a climate with every reg sitting on 20 tables and playing mindlessly, not chatting, not interacting, etc... It creates unbalanced fish to regular ratios because people simply have to play this many tables to get decent rakeback.

If you just provide most players with good rakeback without having to play insane amounts (chopping off the 20-30% extra SNE grinders have been getting) then you will create softer games. There will be no incentive to play 50 tables. They'll be incentive to play 4-8. Play well, and battle vs. other regs/casuals. This is especially true in a rake reduced climate. The edges will be more reasonable so good players can actually play each other.

A climate of massive rake + the only good rakeback is Supernova X3++++

What does that do? It forces players to play insane amounts, for minimal edges, and essentially become rake churners. They win a bit of money, and churn most of the rest of it back into rake. It's a bad cycle for the poker economy and it's not good for anyone.

Pokerstars should be aiming to make the games great and to have as many people as possible bragging to their friends about winning. That's what keeps this great game going. It's not anything else. I couldn't give less of a F*** that Nadal plays on Pokerstars and most other people don't either. They see it as gambling and losing because nobody talks about winning anymore. They just talk about how hard it is and how its rigged etc etc etc.

Build a positive climate where people realistically think they can win and regulars aren't forced to seat script, and play 10 billion hands to acquire rakeback. That's how you improve things. The rest of this is just bollocks.

Or you can be short-sighted and do what Amaya is doing... which is squeezing as much money as possible out of this game until it dies from being choked to death. They aren't helping anything, and they have zero long-term vision.

The only thing that will fix this is dramatic change from Pokerstars. Or unregulated bitcoin poker rising to power with the vision to use lower rake to attract lots of winners and people who can then go brag about where they won.

very well said

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10-30-2014 , 06:03 PM

#194

Tutejszy

veteran

Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 2,633

Quote:

Originally Posted by SandmanNess

people saying that was either spiteful recs, or just plain *******s, all competent regs were very alarmed to see the changes - now we can see why

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10-30-2014 , 06:03 PM

#195

ohmyquad

grinder

Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 554

Holdem Manager and Poker Tracker united company should start a poker site

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10-30-2014 , 06:27 PM

#196

cdog

veteran

Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 2,638

Welcome to Amaya gaming!

See you all on Seals With Clubs, rake is so low if you are half decent you can have a good winrate.

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10-30-2014 , 06:37 PM

#197

restorativejustice

veteran

Join Date: Aug 2014 Posts: 2,753

Rake charged for Hypers is still lower than 888, for example.

Sounds like a lump it or leave it situation.

Quote

10-30-2014 , 06:50 PM

#198

MrAce777

adept

Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 833

Quote:

Originally Posted by PokerStars Michael J

Hello Players,

In recent weeks, PokerStars has made several changes which have upset some players. We’ve heard these complaints and are genuinely listening to the feedback. No one likes higher costs and we appreciate that point of view.

In recent years, we have also heard many high-volume, professional poker players say that the games are tougher now and it’s harder to win than in the past. This is one of the reasons we’ve actually reduced rake previously, which helps the ROI of these players. But that’s not making the games any softer, which is what would really improve ROI.

Instead, we need to invest in new ways to improve the poker economy.

Over recent years, we have been developing ways to grow that we believe will attract new players and reactivate players already in our database. Such initiatives include new poker variants, expansion into other gaming verticals, and new marketing approaches. While we understand that not all players are satisfied with the short-term impact of these changes, the reality is they have the potential to increase poker liquidity.

However, initiatives to attract players require significant investments in areas of marketing, promotions and product innovation.

Additionally, in order to not only secure our continued place as an industry leader across the globe but also to grow ourselves and the game globally, we continue to lobby for the regulation of online poker and attempt to obtain licenses in many newly regulated, locally licensed jurisdictions. We support regulation because we believe it ensures game integrity, player protection, and increases the recognized legitimacy for the game itself. However, there are obviously significant upfront costs to these efforts as well as ongoing costs in the form of gaming license fees and duties.

The funding has to come from many places and it is perfectly reasonable that some of it comes from reducing certain costs, which was the rationale for some of the changes to our VIP program, stemming from a review we began early this year, as well as charging a margin on currency exchange fees. It is also the rationale for our changes to the rake.

If we can grow poker, everyone will benefit. Even our competitors will benefit, because in a rising tide, all ships rise.

Finally, it has to be said that our rake, our currency exchange rates and our VIP program are all more competitive than those of our major competitors.

Sincerely,

Michael Josem
PokerStars Communications Team

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28.../#post45091975

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10-30-2014 , 07:14 PM

#199

disasterflop

old hand

Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 1,619

Rember Party dumping the Murican market first in hopes of getting first dibs on the Murican markets return?
Isai prolly bought up PP shares on the lowdown nowing he was going to sell it off to a slash n burn take over corp. As Wu Tang Financial once said..."You Need to diversify your shorting/insidertrading niqua"